Public Works Committee — 2019-11-07
Attendance
Manisha Bewtra ; Robert A. Boisselle ; Scott M. Forbes ; Kate Lipper-Garabedian ; Shawn M. MacMaster ; Monica C. Medeiros ; Peter D. Mortimer ; John N. Tramontozzi ; Francis X. Wright Jr. ; Michael P. Zwirko
Agenda
Minutes
CITY OF MELROSE PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE CALENDAR● NOVEMBER 7, 2019 Council Chamber, First Floor, Melrose City Hall Committee Meeting 7:15 PM 562 Main Street, Melrose, MA 02176 The public should take notice that the Melrose City Council may, on certain occasions, have a quorum in attendance due to standing committees of the City Council consisting of both voting and non-voting members. Members attending this duly posted meeting are participating and deliberating only in conjunction with the business of the standing committee. Attendee Name Title Status Arrived John N. Tramontozzi Chair Present Robert A. Boisselle Vice Chair Absent Peter D. Mortimer Voting Present Kate Lipper-Garabedian Voting Present Shawn M. MacMaster Voting Present Scott M. Forbes President/Ex Oficio Present Francis X. Wright Jr. Nonvoting Absent Monica C. Medeiros Nonvoting Present Michael P. Zwirko Nonvoting Present Manisha Bewtra Nonvoting Present
ORDER-2020-30 Authorization Emergency Management Services - vehicle acquisition request Hold Public Works Committee
ORDER-2020-37 Request Request for the City of Melrose to produce infrastructural data relating to all municipal sewer lines. Recommend as Amended City Council City of Melrose Page 1 Updated 11/14/2019 10:15 AM
Transcript
▶ 0:21 John N. Tramontozzi: I guess we'll start. Good evening. Being the hour of 715 on November 7th, 2019. This is the Public Works Committee of the City of Melrose City Council. My name is John Tramontozzi. I'm the chair of this committee. And with us this evening as voting members is Councilor Kate Lipper-Garabedian, Councilor Sean McMaster, President Scott Forbes, with us also this evening. Non-voting members, but with us this evening are Councilors Michael Zwerko and Councilors Manisha Bhutra. And did I miss anybody, Councilor Mortimer? I'm sorry, Monica, and also Monica Medeiros. You got me, right? I'm a voting member. And also, Councilor Peter Mortimer, as a voting member, is present with us this evening as well.
▶ 1:59 John N. Tramontozzi: I think I got everybody now. So, this meeting is being recorded by MMTV and is also viewable on the City of Melrose website and on MMTV pursuant to the open meeting law. Motion to open the floor for public comment, Mr. Chair. We do have a motion to open the floor for public comment made by City Councilor Peter Mortimer, seconded by City Councilor Kate Flipper-Garabedian. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed, seeing none. This is that portion of the meeting that any member of the public who wishes to come forward to speak on any order on our agenda. There are two orders on the agenda this evening. Please come forward, sit at the table, sign in, including your name and address, and you're welcome to speak.
▶ 2:48 evening please come forward good evening at first i'd like to say i wear hearing aids so i may answer questions you didn't ask it's been a very long day for me you won't be the first one that's all right my name is anne bentley i live at 21 waverly place i am one of the trustees for the 21 27 waverly place condo trust and last june 2nd 2018 we had a sewer backup into two of our units unit 25 unit 27 at the other end from me the it was it was traumatic for the owners or for the residents there because the crews are asian and they don't speak english very well they are just a delightful couple and they were just terrified because all of a sudden their basement powder room toilet was bubbling over with sewage and they called me about 9 30 and i went over and we all
▶ 3:57 stood at the top of the stairs mr crew was at that point ankle deep in sewage in the basement trying to save possessions and and it was just it was I can't tell you how appalling the smell was poor mrs. Kuh was upstairs vomiting because it was just horrible and so obviously this was an issue we called City Hall we called DPW but of course at 10 o'clock at night they aren't there so we called the police who contacted them and they were very prompt they came as soon as they could and were able to stop the influx but at that point it had already gone through the balloon walls to unit 27 and went through beyond that to our to our utility room where all of our water heaters and things are and um i recalled surf pro after the city managed to get the sewage
▶ 4:57 influx stopped and Servpro I don't know if you're aware but Servpro will not deal with a multiple unit 21 sorry 27 was affected 20 25 was mostly affected with the toilet in their basement and the utility room was lesser to a lesser degree but as trustee I was responsible for cleaning that up so Servpro would not deal with all three of us they only wanted one so in my capacity as trustee I said okay I will take responsibility for paying the cleanup of this because we did not want this in our building any longer than than it had to be so we used our some some of our contingency funds to pay the $5,000 and when they left after three days very efficient cleaning up fortunately number 25 had a tile
▶ 5:57 floor but number 27 had these are both fully furnished basements with with possessions furniture the carpet in 25 you you you would be amazed at how much sewage a carpet can absorb so we had no walls for four feet down we had no those are electrically heated there was no heat through the very cold winter because we were waiting to see we put our claims in immediately and you know there's a sign there in the claims office don't call us we'll call you so we waited patiently and we waited through that incredibly cold winter with no heat in the basement for these for these guys because it was electric in the basement and um water heaters were there so we had to worry about the water pipes bursting through the winter still waiting to hear and that's when i'm not sure how
▶ 7:00 we got in touch with sean or if he got in touch with us first but i think i wrote to him and said how do we get word from City Hall? How do we have, where is our claims? What's going on? There's absolutely silence, dead silence from City Hall. And so Sean took us on. And it wasn't until he managed to, he got Mayor Inferno to contact the city solicitor to ask him, you know, where are we in this, and it turns out that they had filed in July for us, and had contacted their insurance agent, and he had come back with, he needed DPW information which hadn't been forthcoming, somehow, somewhere, someone dropped a ball and it, you know, just kind of didn't get picked up. So finally, this is June 2nd, okay, January 24th, we got a letter finally from the city
▶ 8:02 solicitor explaining what had happened and that the process was going forward again. And finally, March 24th, I think, this year, we were told that it was our fault, but that the city would pay half of our claims. And that rather surprised us, because I don't know how two condo units are responsible for for the city sewer, but we waited and waited. We didn't accept this immediately because the young men that own both of those condos, the sons of the crews own theirs, and the young men that bought the number 27 wanted to see about suing the city. So to make a long story short, we've all decided this has gone on so long, It's so debilitating, it's just so depressing that your city officers just, I mean, we expected more from our city, and it was just terribly disappointing, and we just wanted it to be over, so we decided half a loaf is better than none.
▶ 9:19 So I think we're going to settle for that and just walk away. one thing we have done is we called our insurance agent in immediately to find out the first thing our insurance agents said was a city it's not our problem it's not inside it's outside city's fault so they wouldn't touch it so we changed our insurance to cover internal incidents like this whoever wherever they start so that at least we are covered to repair that mean we had over twenty one thousand dollars in damage to the building alone that we paid for out of pocket and at the rate that the city is building new condos and new apartment buildings without really addressing the elephant in the room which is an antiquated sewer system
▶ 10:14 that cannot absorb what we're already putting into it you know we're all taxpayers sooner or later this is going to happen again and again and we'll be paying for it in our taxes so i'm kind of hoping that with a new administration a new council that this can be addressed because we're all going to be paying for it if it isn't one way or another and so i just hope that moving forward nobody else has to go through what we went through and what brazil street went through because it it i you know i i was at the other end of the building but but trying to help these poor people put their lives back together after this it's it's like having a robber in your home it's just your your home has been invaded and you have to worry about
▶ 11:06 about diseases you have to worry about cleaning up you have to replace your furniture it's I hope no other citizens go through this it's just it's just very difficult for everybody involved and it's not an easy idea you know we recognize it's expensive it's not easy but but this is this is not a this it's gonna happen again it's not going to go away so that that is our story thank you thank you very much for listening motion to close public comment mr chair i will draw the motion thank you please come forward please come forward my name is deborah moore i'm going to read and hopefully won't get emotional i reside at 24 crescent ave i've owned this property for 41 years i was born and raised here and have lived in melrose raising my own family here
▶ 12:19 as well. I would like to share with you our ordeal that greatly disrupted our life. Nine months ago in February of this year we experienced a most horrific, destructive, unsafe, unhealthy series of two sewage backups in one evening. This occurred from the main line in the street. We watched as our lovely game room, bar corner, laundry and storage area and most importantly my husband's fix all things broken work area were devastated by a steady river of contaminated sewage by the time it was over we had many inches of fecal matter with shards of paper throughout and brown liquid sewage covering our entire basement floor destroying anything that it flowed onto we were and are still emotionally debilitated by our loss of control for the
▶ 13:14 entire night and the upcoming claim process for the whole situation i anguish at the unwanted intrusion this caused to my home and to our life i'd like to give you a brief timeline of interactions we experienced with the city's departments for this event as it was a friday night the police had to be called to dispatch the dpw to our home a crew came to assess the problem and specific equipment trucks were called out to investigate the streets drain system a specific area of crescent f in the intersection of washington street was jetted and a blockage was found and cleared the backup stopped and we were advised by dpw to call in the restoration cleanup company surfro one hour after dpw left another barrage of disgusting sewage
▶ 14:09 began flowing back into our basement again the police were called a second time the same crew the same jet truck was brought back and cleared a different blockage in a different location of the drain again further up on Crescent Ave on the next business day which was the next Monday we initiate the investigation into insurance coverage homeowners versus claiming with the city we were advised to start a claim with the city easily enough a claim was then started within the clerk's office in the legal department assigned us a claim number we only made one request that day and that was to allow us a storage pod to put our undamaged possessions in as the contents of our entire basement were now out in our backyard the answer to that was no we ultimately stored our
▶ 15:05 undamaged belongings ourselves. Servpro was required to take all the contents that were contaminated out of the home. Our carpet, baseboards, parts of walls were hauled away and disposed of in the Servpro trucks. We were left with the remaining destroyed items to be photographed and itemized for the next insurance adjuster process. The insurance adjuster did not come out for two weeks later. Servpro had many pieces of equipment drying out and air changing our basement for well over a week they covered the soiled items in our yard and tarped it over before it snowed it did snow and ice over during the adjuster period process thank god we took pictures because now we were dealing with mother nature in february that pile remained there for
▶ 15:54 months after the initial first night we were never not once contacted by any department in the city hall not the mayor not the health department not emergency management not the DPW not even our alderman because he had no idea the lack and concern was truly a concern for me and my family I viewed this as callous disregard that alone must change calls made to the legal department for status updates were always initiated by myself through the next few months I was told a claim could take well over a year to determine liability in May I went to the mayor's office to discuss the lack of communication from within our city she was apologetic but I made no impact fast forward to June when the Brazil Street
▶ 16:50 backup occurred and reared its ugly head all over the news as well as the Waverly Street family backup that was also displayed in the news I again sought out communication with the legal department and another conversation with the mayor in late June I must have made an impact then when I mentioned that maybe I would go to the news media and newspapers and social media within hours I received a call from the DPW mr. Shana apologized and inquired if Public Works could do anything at this point in time with hauling away the trash this is June within hours on the very same day I also received a call from the city insurance company Trident calling to let me know our claim against the city for liability
▶ 17:41 and responsibility was denied the reason it was found to be quote it was found to be caused by grease in debris in line this blockage was a sudden and unexpected occurrence looking back perhaps I should have gone to the media route it seemed like the squeaky wheel got the grease some backups all unexplained all by grease and debris all sudden and unexpected occurrences some claims are reimbursed for damages some claims are offered mere settlements for damages some claims are just denied as in our case coincidentally as I mentioned before I told I was told over and over the claim process could take well over a year surprisingly ours was done in five months maybe an overabundance of negative attention toward the city with multiple backups another short period of time
▶ 18:42 i do wonder in all truth folks you could all at some time or another win the unwanted one in a million lottery of a devastating surge backup with no damage reimbursement the monetary loss due to these backups for us is very sizable and we don't have twenty thousand dollars but the emotional toll is even worse when we knew no one cared we did not ask to have fecal matter enter our home and ruin our basement and cost us thousands the fact that the city and its insurance company feels it's not an issue and we should just go about our business and rebuild and replace at our own expense is beyond unacceptable. Unfortunately that is what happened to us. I'd like to thank Mr. McMaster for bringing this very unsettling topic of our bad experience
▶ 19:34 to light in hopes that it can maybe change the future for others who endure similar events. I want to thank you all for your attention and your time. Thank you. Thank you. good evening my name is jerry morose um i'm here to speak to you on the order of the um request to produce the data on the infrastructure for sewer lines a few things about that first when requesting data like this instead of asking for a document that's categorized by data recurrence and street address as there it's much more useful to have something that's an electronic form it can be printed out certainly but that somebody can analyze and basically put together addresses or parts of the city or things like that to figure out so you know dealing with the
▶ 21:04 typical pdf file or printed things in the city is not nearly as usable for analyzing and evaluating where are things happening what's happening i think it's important that the city have that that electronic form produce an electronic form I should state that I'm all behind this you know had the city engaged in any kind of interest in infiltration and inflow analysis in prior years at all these types of things would have shown up in a normal inspection of the system I've seen documents even tonight that show that there are areas of the city that the city didn't even have a record of ever having looked in the pipe to see what the what the condition of the pipe was for decades that's unacceptable you
▶ 21:50 can't just assume that infrastructure and when the city complains that the infrastructure is a hundred and something years old well it's not going to get better over time it's you're going to figure out where you're at and and and do things so obviously I really applaud this order in in trying to do this this should be already done I would expect as part of the infiltration inflow work that that our contractor has been doing already that some of the stuff would have been seen I understand the city has was supposed to have obtained a video camera to do inspections that's something that could easily be done as well I do want to highlight it's it's not directly in this order but I pulled together some public records that I was able to go through and I find that
▶ 22:40 over about a three and a half year period from beginning of 2014 to the middle of 2018, I identified 21, at least 21 sewer backups whereby claims were made against the city for these backups. What's troubling is that a number of the claims that seem to be by one adjuster from the insurance company all seem to have zeros next to them, whereas other claims that have other adjusters actually made payouts. It may not be the city's direct responsibility to be sure that the insurance company is being fair about what's happening here, but it's distressing to see that some people had losses that went and made a claim, and some people got as little as $250 or $375, but other people got $30,000 in your claim, and another claim of $5,339.
▶ 23:43 In my view, and I've seen some of the records from Crescent Street, this was not an issue of the homeowners on Crescent Street. This was a city line plugged up with roots, and when roots plug up a line and the flow gets slow the grease starts to build up and clog it up more and you get your your your greasebergs of fatbergs in there and then that something can just have a tiny little opening once that gets stuck it backs up that was the occurrence on Crescent Street it's unconscionable that our city that our DPW that our city solicitor would have all permitted the narrative that somehow this wasn't the fault of the city and that the city didn't have responsibility for it and who's to say that there's a conspiracy around that that's deliberate
▶ 24:39 or who's to say that it's a culture of the city staff and the city representatives obviously the insurance company has a financial interest in saying that all city doesn't have to pay anything for this but I'm seeing misrepresentations made in these claims and I think that's unfortunate I think there's another investigation there beyond the issue of what's the condition of the pipes in the city it's you know I think people have to find out what exactly happened in all these other circumstances you know if these are in here's a question the city knows that there are certain areas of town that they have to use a back tour truck and clear bellies in the lines and stuff like that because they're chronic problems the issue is nobody's actually
▶ 25:22 made an attempt to try to fix those problems and it's crazy to be having a chronic circumstance are going back time and time and time again I hope this order will identify where the problems are and then we can have a prioritized list of correcting the problems so that we don't put any other residents at risk in the future and now that we have a video inspection camera I would hope that we can have I mean we actually should have a comprehensive video inspection now but over time we ought to be evaluating a certain number of miles every year of the sewer system to be sure that we don't have a chronic problem building up and if we do we identify and take care of it your order is is certainly the first step in that and I do applaud it to what I was just
▶ 26:10 talking about insurance claims when it's touched on a complete listing of any and all that related insurance claims I think it's important to have the backup records of each of those claims have made available again in electronic form so people can actually analyze them what actually happened in each case why did somebody determine or claim that the homeowner was at fault and and I got to tell you it it smacks of a malicious practice that the city goes to somebody and says oh well it's not our fault but we'll offer to pay half well right there is a red flag to me that if it wasn't the city's fault the city would have no obligation to pay for any of it and in fact shouldn't be paying for any of it
▶ 26:55 but if the city is going and making an offer of paying for half for something that the city isn't responsible for, that's illegal. You can't apply city funds for individual people if it really wasn't the city's fault. This idea of splitting it in half, I'm interpreting some of what I'm seeing here as if the city's being egregious and trying to shirk its responsibility and put it off onto the homeowner when it's really the city's responsibility. But if the city ever did pay half of somebody who was really the homeowner's fault, that would be an illegal act. would be misappropriation of funds of the city on behalf of an individual that that that warrants another investigation by the board of alderman or the city council i apologize um anyway in summary
▶ 27:44 this order is a great step to start there's a whole lot more work that has to be done around this um i hope that with a new administration and some new members of the city council that that we can have a culture change around infiltration and inflow that you know we can actually work toward improving the city rather than trying to say oh don't look past here there's no problems here occurring or if there's our problems they're not ours you know it is our sewage it is our problem and philosophically isn't the city organized for the benefit of all its residents not to try to I take the benefit of the city coffers and put it off the challenges onto individual homeowners who aren't responsible for it.
▶ 28:35 John N. Tramontozzi: That to me is a sad commentary on our city and how it's operated in the past. I hope we never see that again. Thank you. Thank you. Is there any other members of the public who wish to come forward to speak on any items on the agenda? Motion to close public comment, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Seeing none, there's a motion to close public comment by Councilor Mortimer. Do I have a second? Second. Second by Councilor McMaster. All in favor? Aye. Opposing, none. Public comment is now closed. So we have two orders on the agenda this evening. The first order is order number 2020-30. It's an emergency management services vehicle acquisition request. This is sponsored by Mr. Alan Alpert, who is present with us this evening.
▶ 29:27 Peter D. Mortimer: Do I have a motion to suspend the rules to hear from him? So moved. Second. A motion to suspend the rules by Councilor Mortimer, seconded by Councilor Lipper-Garabedian. All in favor? Aye. Mr. Alpert, would you like to come forward? Mr. Chairman, before we proceed, I'd like to make a point of order. Yes. I'm not sure we can proceed forward with this order. I think it's a good idea. What I see in the paperwork is that it's sponsored by the emergency manager, Mr. Albert. Yes. There are 12 people in this city who can put forth an order. The 11 city councilors and the mayor. Here. I don't see that the mayor's name is on this. I don't think orders are supposed to come to us directly from, I think it's a good idea, but for procedural reasons,
▶ 30:22 Peter D. Mortimer: I think, at this point, we should hold it in committee. And I won't make that motion yet. I'll see what other people think of that comment. But department heads are not supposed to make direct, and I actually think it's a good idea. There's some questions I have about it, but I think it's a good idea. But I don't see that this came through the mayor's office. So I have a little bit of concern about that. Well taken. Is there any other further comment? Councilor . Sure, I mean, to be able to hold it in committee seems like an option procedurally. But the director here, through the chair, can we, Council Member, could we still have the question and the discussion tonight? I think that would be a good idea.
▶ 31:07 Peter D. Mortimer: That would be appropriate. We will hear from Mr. Alpert with any questions that the committee might have. But I am inclined to hold it in committee as Council Member suggested. But anybody wish to have any questions? Mr. Alpert, Counsel Mortimer? Yes, as I started to say on its face, I think this is a great idea. I'd just like to, as we can see from some of the previous comment, I think it's getting more and more important as we go through life to make sure that we do everything entirely properly. As we can see from some of the very important and emotional and correct public comment that we had earlier tonight. So I'm not opposed to the order, I just want to make sure. I was just following direction, being the new-
▶ 32:02 Peter D. Mortimer: Yeah, no, it's not. It was done for me, and I was just told that that was what the process was. How does that go? I understand, and yeah, I sympathize with your predicament, I think you're kind of caught in the middle. It's just a desire to do things right, and again, I think it's a good idea. I just wanted to ask, have you, where I saw your letter and you've been using your own personal vehicle, were you receiving a gasoline stipend for that? No, I haven't been. Okay, so you paid for that transportation to Marlboro and other places through your own expenses, through your own gas fund. And has there been any conversation you've had with other people in the city about if we do acquire this vehicle from the city of Chelsea for $1,
▶ 32:53 who would take care of the basic maintenance such as tires, brakes, oil changes? Has there been any conversation about that? I'm under the impression that it's treated like any other city vehicle, Mr. Public Works Director. I can answer that, it's okay. Thank you, Mr. Stinson. I'm Richard Stinson. I'm the interim public works director. We've gone through the vehicle and inspected it. The vehicle is, for its age, it's a 2002 vehicle. It's in amazing condition. We have very little work that's needed on it. We'll be doing an oil change, maybe changing the tires for the winter, and do the lettering. Other than that, it's ready to go. Um, you'll probably get, it's not going to need an engine, it's not going to need a transmission or a front end.
▶ 33:44 Peter D. Mortimer: You're going to get probably four to five years without any major work in this vehicle. Um, the interior is in great shape. Um, and to answer your question, that tires and the oil change will all come under public works. Just as you would with a police cruiser. All right. Okay, that sounds good, and the vehicle would be housed where during off hours? Here. Would stay at City Hall? Yes. Close to City Hall, one of the spots behind the fire station? Correct. All right, yeah, I think on its face it seems like a good idea, and that's the extent of my comments at this time. Thank you. Thank you. Councilor Lipper-Garabedian. Maybe just two quick questions. Why do you think Chelsea is willing to give up a vehicle that's in such great condition for just a dollar?
▶ 34:35 That vehicle was assigned to me from the day it was brand new. And six months before I left, I received a brand new vehicle from the city. And that didn't go through the process of surplus property yet. And when I had spoken to the mayor about it and said, I have to carry the tools of my trade. You know, when we respond to house fires or any kind of emergency to have the proper radio equipment. I said, if I can get a vehicle at a reasonable price, would it be acceptable? And she said, yes. And I spoke with the city manager and he said, well, we haven't put it out for surplus property and we're always helping cities and towns one way or another. We have no objection to the city of Melrose buying this for a dollar.
▶ 35:23 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: I presume, I mean, is Chelsea currently paying, you know, covering car insurance on it perhaps? No, no, no, the plates have been off their cars since they got my new one. Okay. And you mentioned in your letter to the mayor that a good number of emergency management directors, excuse me, have vehicles that their cities or municipalities provide. Can you talk a little bit about, maybe for, you know, everyone who's watching or listening, you know, why that would be and describe how you would be using the car? Well, other emergency management directors, including myself, we are on 24-hour call. It is an imposition having to come here to pick up the car to go to an emergency, but at least when I get the car, it does have all the tools of the trade.
▶ 36:08 I did go to a hazardous materials incident a couple of months ago at night, and when I pulled up, I had to stop and explain to the police officer as he's trying to move traffic one way, I'm saying well I'm trying to go this way at least this way when you arrive in an official city vehicle it does make entrance that much easier and also when I attend the meeting as in the case of next week I have to go down the south so sure to drop something off I'm using a city vehicle and if something occurs when I am in the vehicle it's it makes it that much easier to get back okay and and what are the tools of the trade that you have in radios turnout gear so when i go to fires i carry some forms equipment to hazardous materials incidents
▶ 37:03 Scott M. Forbes: as i say basically the tools of the trade okay thank you very much anything further Councilor Zwerchel, I'm sorry, President Forbes. All right, just a couple of quick questions. You said that you've had this vehicle since it was put into the inventory from the city of Chelsea, since the inception. Correct. Do you know how much the insurance is on that vehicle? It was part of the city's blanket policy. I don't know what the individual rates boiled down to per vehicle. I think the concept of taking a vehicle for the price of $1 sounds like a great deal but when you sit there and you add all the things up like insurance and maintenance, I mean the Kelley Blue Book value on a 2003 Ford Victoria Crown Vic is like about $1,500.
▶ 37:57 Scott M. Forbes: So if we add up all the insurance costs and daily maintenance and the wear and tear for a 16-year-old vehicle entering our inventory, this actually may be costing us more than the value of the vehicle on an annual basis. Did anybody do any type of analysis before making that type of decision to add it to the fleet or for consideration purposes? We did not look at insurance. I think there's a couple ways you could probably look at that. One, if you were to give a vehicle allowance, that usually factors in the insurance cost and the fuel cost for someone to have a vehicle allowance. So if you were to do that with the emergency management director, you would be paying that cost. So this is a cheaper alternative than paying whether it be the mileage rate
▶ 38:48 Michael P. Zwirko: or paying a monthly rate to the emergency management director because you're only paying $1 for the vehicle. There's not a lot of work to take care of that vehicle. Understood. stood just looking at something that's 16 years old anything can happen at any time and once that does happen then whatever that cost or repair would be would far outweigh the value of the vehicle so just trying to be mindful measure twice cut once so thank you thank you mr. chairman I'm not a voting member of this committee but I did have a couple of questions so typically when we get in and I appreciate the point of order made earlier by councillor Mortimer because I myself had a question. Generally, when we're asked by the mayor's office
▶ 39:34 Michael P. Zwirko: or the administration to either appropriate funds or take on something, there's a memo usually explaining why the administration is in favor of it and this order lacks that. So my question to you is prior to John Schenna leaving, did you ask John Schenna about getting this automobile? And if so, did he give you any type of a response to whether or not you should have said automobile and furthermore did you ask the same question to the mayor i spoke to the mayor i wouldn't have done it without her without her consent and she did give the approval when i discussed it with john his immediate reaction was that he didn't want to add a vehicle of that age to the fleet now he said that without having seen the vehicle
▶ 40:19 i assured the mayor that that vehicle is in excellent condition I kept it fully maintained and when we brought it in the interim director had his staff do an inspection of the vehicle and they said that the vehicle is in very very good condition and I had said to the mayor I said for what we're paying for the vehicle if something serious were to happen we would just dispose of it so I'm not looking in any way manner shape or form to say that if there are breakdown that are that aren't cost efficient no we won't we won't make the repairs but as the interim director said that the cars in very good condition I guess my concern is is that we don't really have I mean this isn't an order from the
▶ 41:07 Michael P. Zwirko: mayor we don't have any opinion one way or the other from the mayor and the precedent that we're setting because we did take away municipal vehicles previously a couple years back and now let's say something does happen to your auto do we have a precedent set where we now need to add a car to the fleet because you you had this this automobile so it might cost a dollar but should it break down in the future it might actually cost a new vehicle and then furthermore we just completed not we the royal we the dpw completed a vehicle fleet survey and you know we're trying to green our fleet we're trying to modernize our fleet set up lease structures for our fleet so we're replacing them on certain
▶ 41:51 Michael P. Zwirko: cycles to make it more cost effective and now we're kind of ad hoc throwing in a 2003 crown vic which isn't really a bastion of efficiency um which is mainly going to be driven in a in a city type of environment so i think that there's a bad precedent here i don't think that it's in line with where we want our fleets to be or go and then i'm worried about what happens uh you know should the vehicle break down and you're without a car and now are we adding another automobile to the fleet well when uh the late director kelly was here he had a vehicle assigned to him understood we took all those away correct right but uh it's the the mileage on on the crown vic uh i did some research on it and the suvs that the police department are using which are acceptable
▶ 42:42 the acceptable miles per gallon for those SUVs are 18 miles per gallon this gets that same mileage that car will probably if it's driven more than 30 miles a week based on going to different locations in different meeting it's going to be a lot of mileage I can't see fuel usage of that vehicle and with that that kind of mile even being more than just a few hundred dollars a year. I mean, it's not something that's going to be out on the road 12, 14 hours a day. And the other thing is, again, having been in this position in my previous occupation, I really don't want to be going to a fire dealing with the people that are being evacuated, relocated and sheltered which is part of the job and then have to take off my
▶ 43:42 Michael P. Zwirko: turnout gear and everything and put it in my personal car I understand we made a decision though years ago to remove the car and I'm worried about other city employees that previously had vehicles that are affected by this I just think it's it's a very slippery slope because effectively when you take away a municipal vehicle from an employee somewhat to a certain extent it's a pay cut in the sense that they now you know have to get their own means of transportation I understand and respect the position that you're in showing up to scenarios wanting to have obviously it be flagged that you're an emergency management director as opposed to showing up in a civilian vehicle but again adding this fleet means it's we're permanently adding that car if this car
▶ 44:33 Shawn M. MacMaster: breaks down I don't I think we'll be back here in future budget cycles looking for another automobile to be added to the fleet and there was a reason we took it away years ago so I'm hesitant to support it now but I also think we still have a procedural issues with this order so those are really all my questions mr. chairman thank you mr. chairman good evening Thank You director Albert for being here Thank You superintendent Stinson director Albert How many times have you had occasion to respond to an emergency since becoming the Emergency Management Director? Yeah. In Melrose? Just once. Just once. You talked a little bit about some of the trainings and conferences that you attend. Can you give us a sense of how many hours a week you're working, so we get a better
▶ 45:26 Shawn M. MacMaster: idea of... My schedule is 18 hours, because it's part-time. And you mentioned a moment ago that you're not reimbursed right now for mileage. Is it your understanding or Superintendent Stinson that we don't reimburse for mileage? Are you aware of any other city employees who attend conferences or travel for some other reason that would be reimbursed? Is there a mechanism for reimbursement? I'm sure there is. I just chose not to submit it. You know, most of the meetings that I go to are within our regional area. You know, that just happens to be a conference. But on a monthly basis, every other month, there's an emergency management director's meeting up in Tewksbury at our headquarters. We have monthly meetings in Wakefield for our Amnestic Regional Emergency Planning Committee.
▶ 46:28 And I have been visiting the housing authority, the nursing homes, meeting with the YMCA, of course, it's walking distance, the YMCA, going to all these facilities, reviewing their emergency evacuation and relocation plans. Most of them have had to start the process of rewriting them because they don't really come up to standard. And, you know, to have to take my car out of the parking lot to drive up to the Elmhurst nursing home and then come back and sometimes not even find the parking space where, you know, when you're having a city vehicle, it's much easier to park and much easier to get around. And, you know, just the added wear and tear to my personal vehicle to do city work. and director albert did you say that you would not be taking this vehicle home or you would correct
▶ 47:23 Shawn M. MacMaster: you would not i was i was told that right now that the only two vehicles they can go home with the fire chief and police chief so if you mentioned you work 18 hours a week if an emergency happened that would typically warrant a response from the emergency management director and what and that emergency happened not during your your regular scheduled hours would you be responsible for responding to that that was part of the job description because it would seem to me that the vehicle would be more appropriate for needing to respond to an emergency than driving to it it certainly would be as i say for over 25 years i had a city vehicle assigned to me never having any issue with it i don't i know if you've looked at the pictures of the car but it's certainly not
▶ 48:12 something that you can hide or something you can uh you know take over to the casino whenever it in the pocket there someplace so i purposely when i got it at chelsea made sure it was fully marked fully leaded and it does it does make a difference having it at your disposal especially in winter months when something happens it would mean i would have to clean off my own car to drive to here and hopefully that if it was during a snowstorm or something that the parking lot was plowed out that i could get the car out but right right now the major issue is just the city accepting the vehicle and giving me the opportunity to have again all the tools of my trades with me so in addition to the procedural matter raised by council of monomer which i tend
▶ 49:03 Shawn M. MacMaster: to agree with and share that concern one of the concerns i have is i don't see and i could be wrong and maybe it's codified somewhere else but i don't see in chapter 90 section 7e which makes clear who can have emergency vehicles that have lights and my understanding is that this car has led warning lights i don't see how emergency management directors um fall under that and i think the reason for that might be and i know not every emergency management director is a sworn police or fire official but most are and i know that having worked in my professional capacity with them outside of this chamber i think that that's probably why it's not specifically mentioned in chapter 90 section 7e so part of my concern is whether or not if if we do vote to move this
▶ 50:01 along and i don't think we're going to make that vote tonight but that um the vehicle is one thing but having led warning lights is is another thing i i haven't looked at 70 for a long time but i believe that that would refer to the emergency management director having the authority to have red lights on his personal vehicle certainly not on a city vehicle i don't know of any emergency management director almost anywhere through the country that does not have emergency lights on the vehicle i would agree i think it's because most tend to be police or not necessarily well not all but but again it is it is a city vehicle uh it's never been an issue and again i i think that's more relative to uh the director having the lights on his own personal vehicle
▶ 50:54 Shawn M. MacMaster: and uh the last thing i'll say is that i do agree with council's worker that i think there is a precedent piece and uh to me it's not that it's not necessary but i think we have to be concerned about precedent um i'm also concerned because i if there's one department that i think right now or one employee who could benefit from from a vehicle would be the parking clerk based on some of the concerns that have been raised i think to many of us about uh enforcement in some of the neighborhoods the uh streets that are dealing with um uh parking uh infractions uh and right now parking clerk who's also part-time is really limited to you know to walking uh the beat so to speak on um you know on main street and some of the surrounding uh streets um in in this area
▶ 51:43 Shawn M. MacMaster: but not in some of the neighborhoods uh so i think based on what council of zorco said that's another concern is not just precedent but who else might benefit uh from one or could benefit more based on some of the needs in the city and i say that not saying that it's not necessary for emergency management but i think in light of uh of all these issues um i have some concerns as well thank you mr chairman welcome thank you absolutely um i think a lot of my colleagues have asked um some of the questions that i had but um those questions raise more questions so uh one of the questions i have or i guess more of a statement is um i guess regardless of what ends up being decided in the interim i would encourage you to actually start logging your
▶ 52:31 Manisha Bewtra: mileage um i think there's some benefit for us to have some a system of accountability on kind of like what your role entails and and and be able to so when you're you know back at the table for budget season and all of that that you have that information of here's how you know i spend my time during the week and the calls i received and that kind of thing in addition to the compensation that i hope you receive from using your personal vehicle and i would hope that that if we do decide to move forward with this vehicle that that kind of logging system would continue i think there would be a lot of value in that an additional concern i have about the vehicle itself is um you know counselors rocco mentioned some concerns around sustainability a piece of that is also the
▶ 53:20 Manisha Bewtra: parking and where the vehicle is effectively garaged overnight or when you're not using it particularly i mean i'm glad to hear that it would be sort of stay in the city um but i think again that's one more uh parking space that we use i think there's some very good arguments from potentially using it but i think that that's another piece of the puzzle um that we should be thinking about before making this decision those are my questions for now very good any further comment uh i know uh councillor mortimer um voting member i'm going to give you the last word yeah i have a few more comments and i'm going to make that motion um i'm in favor of this i think it's a good idea and i think if we do it i think you should take the vehicle home
▶ 54:09 Peter D. Mortimer: But absolutely you have to promise it never leaves the driveway unless you're coming to work or you're called in on call. I think on a situation like the Brazil Street, I think it would have been good to have a marked city vehicle. And we weren't going to put a police cruiser there for a long period of time or a fire truck for a long period of time. I think if there had been an emergency vehicle, there were a lot of things that went wrong with that. But just to have the vehicle on scene, I think, might have allayed a lot of people's concerns. So I think if we do this, and I'm in favor of doing it, I don't think it's fair to you to have to go to these conferences. The parking, we have the meter guys who do that, and that's usually business.
▶ 55:05 Peter D. Mortimer: I would say somebody who might be more, and you could call them in if you responded to an emergency. Would be if we had a tree fall on something, would be the building inspector to make sure that can the electricity be safely turned back on in this building. Are you qualified to make a call like that or would you want the building inspector to make it, or the gas can be turned back on? Are you qualified to make, or the water even now that we think of a- Well, to me, it would come under the jurisdiction of which department has the authority. It would be between most, I would say 90% of the incidents would be decided between the fire department, the incident command of the fire department, and the public works director.
▶ 55:53 Peter D. Mortimer: Mm-hm. Who would be making those particular calls. Certainly, if I'm at a scene and I am questioned by, let's say, the homeowner, gee, is it safe to turn the electricity on? I would then rely on the department within the city that has that jurisdiction. And I would make the phone call to that department, ask for a representative to the scene. I see. Yeah, so that's the reason I think as a first responder, I think it would be a good idea for you to have this vehicle at your house with the absolute prohibition that it's nothing but coming to work for 18 hours, or an on-call response to an emergency. But in the meantime, another procedural aspect of this is the mayor was deficient in not communicating.
▶ 56:46 Peter D. Mortimer: I see letters from you to the mayor, but there's nothing here. And that was really too bad that she didn't put something in writing. And I can hear that there were some aldermen, not me, who have reservations about this. And what if it goes to the full board, the mayor can veto it. And we will have a new mayor on the 15th before we have another full board meeting on the, I think it's the 17th, isn't it? The 18th. The 18th, yeah, I'm looking at a calendar in my head. So we'll have a new mayor before that happens, and the new mayor can veto it. And then I don't think, from what I'm hearing, there's the eight votes necessary here to override a mayoral veto. So we may have done all of this for nothing.
▶ 57:41 Peter D. Mortimer: And again, I'm in favor of it. I think you should take it home. But I don't want us to do all this wheel spinning. And then when the new mayor comes in, he may have an entirely different philosophy. And this is a very executive, strong form of government by our charter that we have here. So I'm going to make a motion, and it's not that I'm against it. I'm going to make a motion that we hold it in committee and let's see if we can work this out and see how the new mayor, hopefully the new mayor will communicate with us, which is very important for a mayor to communicate. And let us know how he's going to feel about it so So it doesn't get vetoed, although I am for the reasons, I hear pros and cons on both sides.
▶ 58:28 Monica C. Medeiros: But overall, I think it's this one person's opinion is, I think it's a good idea. I'll second the motion. Before I take a second on that motion, I want to recognize Councilor Medeiros who had also some comment. But we get the second, and then we can continue with comments. We can do that. We have a motion to hold it in committee by Councillor Mortimer, seconded by Councillor Lipper-Garabedian. On further discussion, Councillor Medeiros. Thank you, and yes, I too am not a voting member of this committee, but I share a lot of the same concerns that have been brought here tonight. I see this as really something that is an appropriation of money that really ultimately it's a decision about whether or not we're going to, I think it's going to change your
▶ 59:14 Monica C. Medeiros: compensation is the way I look at this whether or not you're having mileage or whether or not you're having a vehicle and I think that's something that really needs to come from the mayor and it'd be worked out outside of this chamber and then brought before the the Board of Aldermen I I do share concerns I understand I'm glad to hear the report of how good the condition of the car is I think you've made very reasonable you know arguments about why you might need a car to be handy. At the same time, I share many of these other concerns about where it would be parked and the condition, fuel efficiency. I can't imagine that if you have a 2003 car that's 16 years old, that if it breaks down and it's unfixable, the expectation wouldn't
▶ 1:00:11 Monica C. Medeiros: be that then you would have a car that would be a new car which would cost a lot more money and I think that that's something that should really come with you know confirmation from the mayor that that's how we want to move forward so I'm not even sure we're actually you know appropriately debating this right now because I think it should come from the mayor but those are my thoughts very good thank you if there's no further discussion we do have a motion and on the on the floor that's been seconded all in favor aye any opposed Seeing none, this order will be held in committee. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you ladies and gentlemen. Our second order on the agenda this evening is order 2020-37.
▶ 1:00:52 Shawn M. MacMaster: It's a request for the city of Melrose to produce infrastructural data relating to all municipal sewer lines. And this is an order that's sponsored by Councilor Sean McMaster as well as President Scott Forbes. We'd like to hear from the maker of the other sponsor of the motion. Thank you, thank you Mr. Chairman. I'd like to first thank the residents who came to speak on this order tonight. I know it wasn't easy for you to come and speak publicly about such personal experience that you endured. So thank you for that, and I think I can speak on behalf of all of my colleagues here that on behalf of the city, we're sorry for what you went through. I'd also like to thank President Forbes for co-sponsoring this order with me.
▶ 1:01:39 Shawn M. MacMaster: Three significant sewer backups in Ward 5 within the last year gave impetus to this order. June 12, 2008 on Waverly Place, February 8, 2019 on Crescent Ave, and June 20, 2019 on Brazil Street. In each of these cases, the problem originated in the main sewer line, which the city of course is responsible for maintaining I was made aware of each backup after a resident reached out to me directly when three significant sewer backups happen in a year's time I think that it warrants the attention of this body and that we have a responsibility to find out more now I do realize that we're entitled to information from city departments upon request and that I could have simply sought this information that is contained in this
▶ 1:02:29 Shawn M. MacMaster: order by just asking for it but in light of what brazil street illuminated in terms of the state and age of that sewer line i think we owe it to our residents for this inquiry to be a public one as opposed to an administrative one this order would do four things the first element of the order would require the administration to put together a street directory that lists the age of all sewer mains in the city and i would expect after uh i have an opportunity to speak and uh more on this order and president forbes speaks that council of the garabedian will speak she's planted the seeds for some of this work with some of her proactiveness in reaching out to dpw on some related questions so there's some work already underway that i think
▶ 1:03:26 Shawn M. MacMaster: this will provide some additional momentum for and compel the next administration to produce this information and work collaboratively with us to understand the size and scope of this problem. Simply put, the public has a right to know the age of the infrastructure under their street. That info should not only be available, but it should be easily accessible. I also think that prospective residents as potential consumers of municipal services should know what they're buying into from a utility perspective. Also, this element of the order would be instructive to the incoming mayor in that it can help to map out a prioritization plan. The second part of the order would produce a complete listing of any and all sewer backups of which the Department of Public Works was notified during the 2017, 2018, and 2019 calendar years categorized by date of occurrence and street address.
▶ 1:04:33 Shawn M. MacMaster: I think this would be informative to this board to get an idea as to whether or not there are particular areas of the city neighborhoods where we're seeing more problems. Without this information, I really would be hesitant as a member of this council to vote on any requests for money related to sewer work until we really have a macro perspective of our sewer infrastructure. The third and fourth elements of this order relate to insurance. It would disclose a complete listing of any and all related insurance claims filed during 2017, 2000 and 2000, 2018 and 2019, those calendar years, backups occurring at both residential and commercial properties, as well as a complete listing of any and all
▶ 1:05:31 Shawn M. MacMaster: pending awarded, both partial and full, and denied insurance claims filed during that same time period, again, for backups occurring at both residential and commercial properties. What I've seen over the last year is that there are inequities, real inequities in how the city's insurance company processes claims filed by residents. There is absolutely no incentive for the city's insurance company to expedite claims. Brazil Street was only expedited at the request of our legal office because of the attention that it drew. But understanding that most cases never get any media attention, it's to the insurance company's benefit and to the city's benefit as it relates to the premium that we pay to
▶ 1:06:22 Shawn M. MacMaster: really kick the can down the road until people either give up or until their focus inevitably turns to other responsibilities, priorities, or problems that life throws their way. To me, this is not only unfair, it's unconscionable. Waverly Place took nine months before they were offered an insulting partial settlement. And I question whether or not they would have been offered anything had it not been for my eventual involvement. Creston Ave took almost five months before they received an outright denial letter. And you heard Ms. Moore talk a little bit about her experience. The letter acknowledges that the problem happened in the main sewer line. And the letter in part says claims brought against municipalities are governed by Massachusetts
▶ 1:07:11 Shawn M. MacMaster: General Laws Chapter 258. This statute provides immunities and defenses to the city for claims brought by third parties. For example, the quote discretionary function defense shields municipal officials from liability for decisions involving public policy planning. Please be advised that the City of Melrose is immune from liability for claims based on an allegation that it has an inadequate sewer monitoring system. So this relates to sovereign immunity. My colleagues may remember when Mr. Van Campen was here, he talked about sovereign immunity. I think we all understand the purpose of sovereign immunity is to ensure that municipalities don't become bankrupt. understand that but sovereign immunity protects the city and our liability
▶ 1:08:07 Shawn M. MacMaster: insurance protects the city but our residents are not protected when there are clear-cut cases where problems originate in the main sewer line and cause damage to people's homes and the three backups of which were aware two of them which residents spoke about tonight in brazil street which we are all well aware of the facts are are strikingly similar grease and debris in the main sewer line in addition so that's across the board that's a brazil street waverly crescent and with beyond the state of those three sewer lines in addition to that there were actions and inactions that were contributing factors um and i want to acknowledge that mistakes happen and that's why this statute talks about the you know discretionary function um there's no one way to
▶ 1:09:06 Shawn M. MacMaster: respond it's not you know the police don't have discretion to not respond to a call or to to the fire department doesn't have discretion to not respond when it has a call but there are discretionary policy decisions that that city departments make and i understand that and i And I also want to acknowledge and I think the residents both who are here and also the Brazil Street residents had nothing but positive things to say about the DPW workers. Regardless again of actions or inactions that may have contributed to the problem, they were treated with respect. And they had nothing but positive things to say to me. So I just think that's important to say publicly. I think Superintendent Stinson, that's important for you to communicate to your team that throughout these three ordeals,
▶ 1:09:49 Shawn M. MacMaster: people have had nothing but positive things to say about our DPW workers. But I do think, you know, we do have to acknowledge beyond the similarities of the grease and debris in the main sewer line, Brazil Street, we know that there was too much water pressure applied when attempting to clear the line. Waverly, the crew jetted in the wrong direction. That is memorialized in a DPW report. Crescent, the blockage was cleared up to the first manhole cover, but not further up to the second manhole cover which resulted in that second backup so these these are problems that didn't originate in the private lateral lines they originated in the main sewer line our residents are not responsible for monitoring or
▶ 1:10:37 Shawn M. MacMaster: maintaining those lines so this particular request for insurance information is important because if it reveals a larger pattern of claims being outright denied or partial partially yet insufficiently awarded then I think we as a city should contemplate the merits of dropping our liability insurance to pursue self insurance now I'm not saying that we do that but I think we have to have a candid conversation as a council and with the next administration and with the city solicitor and with the superintendent of DPW about potentially self-insurance other municipalities do it and I think considering what we know what we heard from residents tonight it would behoove us to at least have that conversation
▶ 1:11:20 Shawn M. MacMaster: what that would do is there would be a block of money that would be earmarked from our operating budget specifically for the purpose of insurance because to me understanding what people have gone through and knowing why other municipalities self-insure it's really the only way that we as the city can truly hold ourselves accountable to our residents when we are culpable for a problem that caused them harm and hardship we owe it to our residents to at least consider this finally in addition to evaluating the future of our insurance in the city knowing the number of claims filed and the status and outcomes of those claims i think in in doing that we will be helping to raise awareness with the public
▶ 1:12:12 Shawn M. MacMaster: so that they can better protect themselves and their property if they know that it's unlikely that the city will ever compensate them so this could perhaps prompt homeowners to add an insurance rider for sewer coverage on their homeowners insurance policy but most people don't have that rider on their insurance and i don't think most people know to even consider that but i think if this illuminates a larger problem and we have an idea about how many claims, and Mr. Moreau has more information than I do on this, about the number of claims that are, you know, where there's no award, where it's a complete zero, the public has a right to know that and should know that. Because if we're not going to protect them, then they need to do what they can do to protect
▶ 1:12:57 Scott M. Forbes: themselves. And if that's adding a rider on their homeowners insurance policy, then they should do that. But I don't think people are going to know to do that unless they have the information before them. For all of these reasons, I think that this order is really in the best interest of public welfare. I think that it is in the spirit of transparency, and I would respectfully ask for your support this evening in passing this favorably in committee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Very good. President Forbes. Thank you. I appreciate all the McMasters. Very well said. I'm not going to reemphasize points that were already said here this evening. In addition to the three occurrences that Council McMaster referred to, there's also a fourth one I know in Ward 7 which occurred on Memorial Day weekend at the Cargill residence on Fairfield Avenue because I got that phone call as we were getting a walk in the Memorial Day parade.
▶ 1:13:54 Scott M. Forbes: So when you have these occurrences that are supposed to be sudden and unexpected occurrences that are occurring in batches, we need to have a bigger conversation. I'm the request for this order is to be able to to collect data because I think we're all data driven and to be able to sit down and take a look at this and take a deeper dive and try to see if there are any next steps if we don't have that conversation we're going to be in the same boat and where we are months and months down the road and who's to say that another occurrence is going to happen and then that's on us you know because we owe it to ourselves and our residents and everyone here in the community to make sure that we're doing the right thing and as far as insurance
▶ 1:14:34 Scott M. Forbes: settlements are concerned just because a resident settles for insurance doesn't necessarily mean that they're satisfied satisfied with the outcomes they think that that is at that point in time maybe the only option that they have so they can move on and try to get life returned to some type of normalcy i know we experienced that on brazil street most recently as well as the other residents that spoke here tonight and very passionate we have 100 year old sewer lines if you move into your residence and live there for 10 years you're contributing factor to the lines but for a period of over a hundred years and if these lines aren't monitored how do we know and who is to you know how how do we know what the source is so again you know this is an order that makes
▶ 1:15:24 Scott M. Forbes: you know it's the first step in having a better conversation on how what we need to do identify the problems and figure out a solutions on where we need to be in terms of our infrastructure we say this all the time we need to invest more aggressively in our infrastructure not only because of the impact that it makes but also we have water lines where water doesn't hit the houses because they're old and they leak and we have sewer lines that collect inflow and infiltration every time there's a storm and it hits the master meter going out that in terms gives us higher water and sewer bills we've been talking about it for years if we make this investment in our water and sewer lines now we will see an immediate cost benefit but also in
▶ 1:16:08 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: terms of public safety it'll be a benefit to all residents here in the city of mountains thank you very good um council all over the garage thank you and we're under suspension of rules currently i believe still yes we have would you mind joining us director stinson thank you thank you very much for being here tonight um sorry um and i know we haven't had a chance to meet in person but i wanted to say you have been incredibly responsive with a lot of emails that i've shared with you over the summer since you've come on board with constituent questions and my own questions and I'm really appreciative of you being attuned to them and timely in your responses so thank you very much one thing that you
▶ 1:16:54 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: and I have talked a little bit about over the over email has been providing more information to the residents and so I'm very appreciative of counselor McMaster and president Forbes for suggesting this as a way to just get more information to people so that they can be more savvy consumers of city services and have a better sense of how the city views the infrastructure in their area one thing that DPW has put out that residents have really liked was a map of all of the street conditions it's helpful for them to see what their condition looks like and then how that compares around the city so I think you know the first part of this request about a street directory listing the age of all sewer mains in the city is sort of similar to that and could be really
▶ 1:17:41 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: useful what we've been talking about you and I is figuring out a way to let each resident be able to query his or her own home and figure out exactly what the private the private part of the system its condition its age how what wide it is and we've talked a little bit about how that's already been undertaken which is really great to hear but that that's a very tedious process because you've sent me pictures of what it looks like from my own house and I put it up in my newsletter today just so people could see it but those are handwritten they're more than a century old maybe and so someone has to scan that and then decipher it and then enter it into a database and so that's going to take some time I'm wondering what about this one the idea of just creating a
▶ 1:18:29 directory listing the age of the mains themselves and I see on our website it says we have 78 miles of sewer mains right and it kind of all goes together and what I shared the councilwoman is that the we have 17,000 water cards we have 8,500 sewer cards and those cards are all done in handwriting done over the years since they were from the beginning when water mains went in and there might be some that there are no cards for and to give you an example of kind of what happened well first all that data needs to be scrubbed and looked at and I'll give you an example why we take you take ties off of a building to locate a water main or a sewer sewer main or a sewer service or a water service years ago they might tie that to a tree now you come along now
▶ 1:19:32 and that trees gone so that data all needs to be looked at carefully because you're liable to put something out there that is not true and that's just the nature of the cards it's not Melrose it's every place around we've been working on that data and getting those cards into the system for quite a while and it's just time-consuming and expensive in every town's doing it the every community I was doing in Wakefield we're still not done it takes time it takes money needs to be done right now we have about five thousand fifty five hundred cards done on the water side out of the 17,000 on the suicide there are about 2,000 that have been done you know there's a limited staff and engineering that's doing that we've done it a lot of it with consultants and the consultant
▶ 1:20:42 cost would be probably over $50,000 and that I would have to confirm to finish that up that also ties in that work ties in with the mains because you document the main work at the same time the age when it was put in the type of material the pipe material and all of that we're about probably have 40% where we can tie on a map the sewer segments with the street name in the age of the name but then you have the material you want to know all that stuff so it's just a lot of work to in looking at the order I to say you want that and I think I know if was 30 or 45 days it's impossible to give you that component of what you're looking for here it's just not there to do unfortunately i wish i could but it's not there
▶ 1:21:45 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: to do it's going to take some time and money to do that can we so we i've been talking about maybe the hookups and um right and then this order is talking about the mains and i understand there are 78 miles of maine so how i mean what and what chunks are maine so for in other words if i know my house is at 21 is it that you know and it was installed in 1910 you know how far down would I mean how can you kind of describe how you know where you know one part of the main begins and ends or they do those cards okay but they also will have plans sometimes of when mains were replaced so if you put a new main in on the street today and you go pot way down we're gonna have a brand plan that says what that is type of material on the other one if something was put in 100 years
▶ 1:22:39 ago you're looking at a tie card to say what that age was and you know there's dates on them you saw the cards there's dates there's material um and there's width there's there's the dimension right to the pipe and that type of stuff are there different dimensions for different mains in the the city yeah you could have um you try not to do anything less than eight inch today but there are mains that could be depending on the street if there was one house it could be what is a two inch main which is basically a service they could go up all the way to um the largest one i had in Wakefield was 16 and 20 inches so you probably have a 20 size main that's on water on sewer they can go probably 8 12 usually doesn't go over 12 but it might
▶ 1:23:35 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: go to 16 is there a reason why you have to undertake the inventorying of sewer and water at the exact same time or could we prioritize just sewer given the traumatic experiences that we've seen over the last year you you do it together because you're building something for that street so what you're gonna do is you if you did one then you're gonna kind of go back and it's you're really adding cost to the whole project it's not efficient that way if you're already in one portion you're sort of able to look at both more quickly and if someone needed right now if someone needed to know what their service line was or their um the main in the street they can easily call us and we can tell you that because we'd look it up individually but to put it all on a on the plan is what's taking
▶ 1:24:29 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: time and so i think i maybe you have disabused me of a misunderstanding that in fact the work that you were doing to code all the service lines is is a necessary component of coding all of the main lines in other words you cannot there's no way to expedite you could do the main separately okay but it's easier just to kind of tie it all together now if you were to do the main separately i'm hearing you can't do it within i think the order asks within 30 days what is a and when you were emailing with me you suggested it could be through 2020 that you're going to be completing the work on all of the the service lines right for the um for the service stuff um the main stuff would be done quicker but it's i'd have to really sit down with a
▶ 1:25:17 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: consultant in engineering and talk about time frame what can is realistic to get that done one thing that um i appreciate about you being here is that you have a lot of experience in another municipality and you sort of reference that a little bit in suggesting that perhaps our infrastructure isn't necessarily different from wakefield can you speak a little bit about the differences between the two sure the you know the the infrastructure is the same i mean just because a pipe is old does not mean it's not good um and uh there are a lot of mains that exist whether it be sewer or water that are in great shape that are old there are There are sewer and water mains that are not in great shape.
▶ 1:26:09 There are also sewer and water mains that you can look at, and I'll tell you about one that happened in Wakefield, that look, if you looked at it, I looked at it having knowledge, and I had engineers look at it that were specialists that when they looked at it, it looked like it was 100% perfect. It was the best main in the world, and it went back over probably 80 years, and this was a water main, and what we found was, and I had two breaks that cost a fortune on Green Street in Wakefield, and one was 200 feet apart, and it was a 16-inch water main. A 16-inch water main does a tremendous amount of damage, and it did in both cases. and we sent it out to a lab to just analyze it and what they were when you read it these
▶ 1:27:06 features in the the main you can't see with the normal eye and unless you put it under a microscope you don't even know it's there and did that cause the problem we still don't know to this day was it the traffic the heavy traffic on the road that caused the problem made it break was it the pressure in the pipe it's interesting that both incidents happened on the same weekend two years apart okay um and we still don't know um so there are things that like that that you can never explain i i can tell you in this case the issue you're talking about insurance the funny thing about today is Wakefield's insurance company Melrose insurance company it's an act of God the homeowners insurance company it's an act
▶ 1:28:02 of God and it's like pointing fingers at each other I don't have the answer to that I mean that's something that I think you guys need to look at and we sit there we kind of scratch our heads sometimes on that response it aggravates us it's not something that we like to have happen in terms of looking at sewer lines as was mentioned it ongoing all the time with the MWRA money and the inflow infiltration money it is very expensive just to analyze the sewer main between TV work and you can't with the TV camera that the city bought you're not going to analyze all the sewer mains with that it's you don't have enough labor or time to do that or necessarily they're different sized cameras so you need different sized cameras so consultants come in and they will
▶ 1:29:06 analyze a section they will TV a section smoke test a section and then they'll go out and make the repairs to that entire section to do the entire city which you're trying to do i mean we're still doing it in wakefield we've been working at it for 20 years to go through that entire setup it takes a lot of time and a lot of money to just analyze it and then you got the repair cost and you fix them as you you go greece greece is interesting you don't know necessarily where it's coming from you can guess sometimes greece is a problem in every city there are some things you can do to help with that and i think one of the things that um mr mcmaster mentioned was you look at the um locations of where there have been
▶ 1:30:11 grease backups then you can set a program up to go out and flush those frequently and i don't believe i know they go out and flush frequently but maybe that needs a tweaking in the schedule But looking at those past breaks or past grease blockages helps if you get grease with tree roots that are growing in there or You get something that gets flushed down the system and catches on the tree roots Like one of the worst things that can happen and you just don't know about it So two tree roots are another major issue just my last question. I was gonna ask you about the camera so is that is that part of your toolbox at this point we use it all the time and what are you so what do you use it for if you know so it's not going to be a
▶ 1:31:00 particularly helpful tool necessarily for some of this comprehensive work but I'm assuming you use it for you know pinpointing particular issues that are arising right we can go a certain distance there are cameras that go much longer in a sewer main or drain or line um so we can really look at some spots and some isolated spots to figure that out okay and figure if there's an issue there okay but we use it all the time so it's more for triage as opposed to like an ongoing project okay thank you very much uh councilman mortimer thank you very much i'm i'm going to uh i support the spirit of this order i'm not sure if an amendment would be appropriate in light of mr stinson's uh director stimson's um comments that it might be hard if
▶ 1:31:56 Peter D. Mortimer: we want to do this but we don't want to delay there's been there's been enough uh heartache as we saw here um and it's terrible i really like the spirit of it um that you know it's It's an insurance program, but before I proceed, I want to thank you very much. I had some people in Ward 6 who have problems with storm water. And that's not as bad as sewage, of course. But you've already taken some remediation steps to make sure that for the winter months, that flooding problem would be mitigated, and thank you very much. And you've also been responsive to any other questions I've had since you've been in place. appreciate that very much you do a wonderful job and no one's no one's malicious you know for the people out there you know though these blocks I
▶ 1:32:55 Peter D. Mortimer: hate to compare it to cancer but that's kind of what it is you're going along in life and you think everything's fine and then who you feel pain you go to the doctor and you have cancer and that's the way it is with these sewer lines a You know, everything's flowing, everything's flowing, everything's great, and all of a sudden you get a backup. And it's especially true, President Forbes mentioned another one that he had. I know somebody on Willow Street who had the same problem. And I like your idea that you see these areas, but what we see a lot, it's these low-lying areas, where the pitch of the gravity for the pipes makes it more inclined. If you live on a steep hill, you're probably not as inclined, unless you live at the bottom of a steep hill, like Brazil Street.
▶ 1:33:49 Peter D. Mortimer: And besides the insurance rider that was mentioned, which is a wonderful idea that people might become aware of that. Also, if you're in a low area, and I'm not trying to play Monday morning quarterback or second guess anyone who's here in the room, is you might think about a back flow preventer or a check valve in your own plumbing. And that's something you might do, and that might bring the problem more to awareness, especially if you're in a low lying or a flat area besides the rider on insurance. And speaking of insurance, I don't like insurance companies because you hit the nail on the head. We all point fingers at each other, and they hope. And at public participation, I really appreciated the comments that were made.
▶ 1:34:47 Peter D. Mortimer: But one thing that just because the city settles doesn't mean that they're admitting culpability. What it means is they just want the suit to go away, and it's cheaper to make the suit go away. And the insurance companies play the same terrible game where they just keep stringing you along and stringing you along. And they make you sue them, knowing that most people won't sue. And even when they do, they'll just string it out because they'd rather keep the money in their bank account, collecting interest, than make the payout in an expeditious and just and fair manner. They're horrible. And that's part of the problem. So maybe the idea of self insurance would be a good idea, But we have to be careful we don't get too drained.
▶ 1:35:36 Peter D. Mortimer: You know, there's a lot, this is a giant ball of yarn. Insurance companies are awful. And you know, with the car insurance, you can see why they play games with that, because there are some people who fake. But if you have sewage in your house, there's no faking. You know, with the car insurance and personal injury, there's some people who fake. So you can see why they might play hardball in that arena. But when it comes to, hey, I got raw sewage, brown liquid, as was mentioned earlier, in my basement, you take a picture of it, there's no debate. What, are people going to fake that to try to collect insurance? Who would do that to themselves? That would be insane. But the insurance companies, the way they work, you pay over $100,000 over 20 years buying your car insurance.
▶ 1:36:25 Peter D. Mortimer: You get in a $5,000 accident after you've given them $100,000 and they want to give you a surcharge. And then they got this new thing, accident forgiveness, which is really they just want you to buy more insurance on your regular insurance, so you don't get a surcharge. You have to insure your own insurance. Not a big fan of the insurance companies, as you can tell, and you hit the nail on the head with that, and it's a shame that when it's somebody's home, you know, it's bad enough when it's your car if it's just damage. It's worse if you've been personally injured and you're trying to get well and they're playing games with you. When it's your own home where you live, and you're trying to enjoy home,
▶ 1:37:04 Peter D. Mortimer: the one place in the world where you're supposed to feel safe and secure and comfortable. And the insurance company's playing games. And hopefully that situation will be remediated soon. But I appreciate your comments on it. I really appreciate this order. I'm glad to see we're going to be moving towards doing something about the way the system is now. the system as it presently exists is not working well for people thank you very much i have council abutra next and then council maderos and mcmaster if there's anybody else let me know thank you um i first wanted to thank the residents who came to speak tonight um i think it just really drives the point home of why this order um was put forth when we hear those personal stories
▶ 1:37:57 Manisha Bewtra: I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK REALLY DISTURBED ME WHEN WE WERE LEARNING ABOUT BRAZIL STREET WAS THIS NOTION THAT WE AS COUNCILORS SHOULDN'T REALLY BE BOTHERED WITH THESE INCIDENTS WHEN THEY HAPPEN. I KNOW, I MEAN, WE DISCUSSED THIS AD NAUSEAM WITH REGARDS TO BRAZIL STREET, BUT I THINK THINKING ABOUT SORT OF THE NEXT ADMINISTRATION AND THE NEW COUNCILORS WHO WILL BE IN THIS horseshoe one of the things i hope is for more partnership and more regular information sharing on these types of incidents i can imagine that that in and of itself could become unwieldy so i can understand if there's hesitation but i think ultimately um using the counselors as partners who are live in this community and are often here when um staff are at home uh after
▶ 1:38:54 Manisha Bewtra: hours and things like that could actually you know help with these issues around communication and the feeling that the residents expressed tonight around um having a presence from city hall absolutely there should be someone from the mayor's office and dpw or police um you know on the scene when things happen but i think having the counselors have a role could really um help change that the reality of what's actually happening on the ground but also the perception of the city caring about its residents or the city capital c um i think uh you know it sounds like this process will take some time um i would encourage you and your successor uh to provide some regular updates on how that data is you know coming along and I want to
▶ 1:39:53 Manisha Bewtra: thank my colleagues councillor McMaster and president Forbes for putting this order forth as well as councillor Lipper-Garabedian for the work she's been doing in terms of having more of this information shared with the broader public I agree with comment from the public regarding having this information available electronically again I don't know what kind of like large database or how that what that's going to look like I think there's definite benefit in having printed a printed street directory as well as printed maps because not everyone's going to be tech savvy but I think having access to the data so members of the public who want to kind of dig into what's going on whether it's their own home or understanding more systemically can download that information and
▶ 1:40:45 Manisha Bewtra: and maybe map it on their own would be very valuable additionally we have our online gis system and so my hope is that um and you know i think i was surprised i thought i had seen it there in the past but maybe i never did um that that our sewer lines were actually part of our online gis layers um and having as this data is developed if it can be added into the not necessarily all the details about the insurance claims but the details on the sewer mains and their the age of the infrastructure be incorporated into that online gs gis system i think that'd be extremely helpful um for the moment those are my comments i i appreciate your time tonight and thank you for filling in uh in this role um until until your successor comes on board i very much
▶ 1:41:42 Monica C. Medeiros: appreciate everything i'm hearing about your work in the department um since you've begun uh and that's it for now thank you very good councilman thank you uh yes thank you too i'd like to first also to to thank you for the responsiveness that that i've experienced since i've brought several resident concerns and and some of them have been very very happy so i just want to pass that on to you and say i appreciate that um i do definitely support this order and i i want to thank counselor mcmaster and president forbes for bringing this forward i i think it's so important that we are looking at the data and that we are putting this together and in planning out the actions that you know we take as a community moving forward to we heard from the
▶ 1:42:33 Monica C. Medeiros: residents and many of us along the way that it's i can't even imagine what living through an experience like that must be like and that it's so important that we do whatever we can to make take steps that something like that doesn't happen again and or at least to minimize the occurrence at minimum um uh in regard to the street listing and and so just uh sort of jumping back to the insurance claims and and how we're handling these and the discrepancies that we hear about i just i do think and i hope that we are i think it's so important for the next administration in particular to come up with really a clear set of policies and procedures on how these things are handled and i think that would help if there's a clear set of actions and
▶ 1:43:23 Monica C. Medeiros: how the mayor's office responds if there's something like this comes up and that there's something that can be shared with the public on how the claims process is handled if if something like this happens so that everybody knows up front and has the same set of expectations but to the street listing part of this and i i wonder if you know and obviously again i'm not a voting member of this committee but it seems to me that it would be beneficial to have what we do have already cataloged even knowing that maybe we're not through with it and it may take you know many many more months in order to complete it is it possible that we could get what we've done so far in 30 days from the passage of this order i can look at that yeah okay i i mean i
▶ 1:44:21 Shawn M. MacMaster: i think we can but i i'd want to confirm that so i for one i think that would be beneficial and And that would be acceptable to the makers. I hope we would do that. Thank you. Very good. We have Councilman McMaster in this. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really do appreciate the work being done to date, the efforts of DPW and the engineering department to really help us understand the state of both sewer and water. i'm optimistic that if we're at 40 i think you said superintendent stinson of the sewer uh segments with the connected to the actual street name that um perhaps after hearing back from you we might be able to at least get that as council madera said within the next 30 days i'm not you
▶ 1:45:13 Shawn M. MacMaster: know opposed and would certainly if any of my colleagues had an amendment would not be opposed to some amendment that would either extend the period of time relative to the main sewer line information particularly the the street directory the one concern i have is i really do not want this to be a project to nowhere and i think as somebody who's spent my career in state government sometimes that happens and it happens just because of the nature of the work and the priorities that that government officials deal with on a daily basis. So I think if we're able to find an amendment that is satisfactory to the committee to move along, I would like to find one in a way that ensures that it's not too far out, but at the same time,
▶ 1:46:08 Shawn M. MacMaster: it's manageable for our city departments. You know, whether or not that is a series of status dates or status date where what we have by a certain date is reported and then we reevaluate. But I do think there needs to be, you know, some information at least initially produced and then, again, a status date or a further out date to allow some time for the street listing. As it relates to the insurance information, I do think that 30 days is reasonable for that. If it is, as Mr. Moreau said, 20 or so, and who knows, maybe it's much more than that, that information should be easily accessible by both the city solicitor and DPW. So I think that is reasonable. Um, so I, uh, I, I just don't want to, um, like I said, uh, have this, um, not go anywhere.
▶ 1:47:11 Shawn M. MacMaster: And, um, there is a level of urgency as we heard, uh, from the residents. Um, yeah, I've been in all six homes. President Forbes has been in the four on Brazil street. And as Ms. Bentley said, they went through a winter without insulation. crescent street they had a beautiful finished basement you can see the damage still they don't have the means by which to address that damage so what i think this will help us do is put ourselves in a better position to mitigate the chances of something like this happening and it is not an easy undertaking to both i think produce this information as you've represented superintendent stinson but also to address it but we need to start and the the affirmative way to
▶ 1:47:55 Shawn M. MacMaster: do that is to have the data and work uh collaboratively as counselor butra said with the administration so i um i say that just to give a cue to my colleagues that i'd be open to some sort of an amendment so long as it's a reasonable uh extension or again like i said a status um series of status dates thank you mr chairman any further discussion What's the will of the committee? Further discussion? Yeah, further discussion. If in the most friendly and respectful manner, perhaps it would be best if the maker would proffer the amendment. Out of respect for the hard work you've done, it may be best if that came from you, sir. Through the chair, I believe Councilor Lipper-Garabedian may have a suggestion.
▶ 1:48:50 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: I'll defer. I'll yield my time to see if the maker of the order would like to suggest a- I'm really interested in hearing from my colleagues to see if what others think and then we can take it from there. Then with my time I mean perhaps there's a way to propose an amendment to the first sentence of the final paragraph where it says such information shall be provided to the City Council within 30 days from the passage of this order and then it provided that phrase here and I'm you know I haven't quite written it down yet provided that DPW shall produce information in response to the first item as available within 30 days and thereafter provide the City Council with updated information every
▶ 1:49:46 Michael P. Zwirko: three months something along those lines any other comments uh councillors uh thank you mr chairman wait i'm sorry is that a motion or am i just let's just further let's just talk about it for a second before we put in a form of a motion thank you sorry uh so thank you mr chairman um i i do like some of the wording that was proposed by uh councillor Letter garabedian i was thinking though maybe that if we just alter the first bullet versus the last paragraph it might be a little bit simpler but it also might just be semantics so understood that we still need director stinson to follow up given the time frame because he's not sure even the data that's available today might be able to be turned around within 30 days so i think we still have to wait to
▶ 1:50:50 Michael P. Zwirko: hear from him uh on the time frame of that that being said it seems like the the bullets the second third and fourth bullets are okay the issue is really with the data and availability of the items with respect to the first bullet so i'm thinking that if we at the end of where it says city of melrose if you just add as available at the passage of this order might might help but but it still doesn't rectify the 30-day provision for the information to be provided, because we don't know if it's readily available or not. But I do think that Alderman Lipper-Garabedian did address that in a proposed language. That was just my comment. Mr. Chairman, I would not thank you, Councilor Zabraco. I would actually, considering where we are, it's the start of November,
▶ 1:51:40 Shawn M. MacMaster: I would not be opposed to, and if this addresses Councilor Zabraco's point about what's available and what is certainly within the means of DPW to potentially consider 60 days. That might be more reasonable because that will get us through the holidays. We won't be meeting all that much around the holidays. So to me, if Councilor Lipper-Garabedian wanted to make the motion with the language and perhaps amend the 30 days to 60 days, I would certainly second that. Through the chair, I'm happy to move that language for him if that's the will of the maker. So I will suggest that the wording that I provided previously be amended simply to replace well to include that but then to revise the earlier language to say within 60 days.
▶ 1:52:37 John N. Tramontozzi: So I would move to amend the order with those two with the additional proviso and then changing 30 to 60. so I think what I'm hearing here is that well the bullet one two three four should I think we should number them because you kind of referencing the importance of certain information depending on the bullet one two three four and it's such information if available shall be provided to the City Council within 60 days from the passage of this order provided further that Department of Public Works shall produce information in response to number one within 60 days and thereafter provide the City Council further information every seven months. Three months. I'm sorry, three months, right, every three months.
▶ 1:53:41 John N. Tramontozzi: If that's in the form of a motion, I would second that, Mr. Chairman. Is that, did that sound okay? I don't, I don't- And we can make that, Do you want to make that motion? Sure. I'll move that we amend the order as stated. As stated? Mm-hm. As stated. Okay. Second. There's a second. So, the amendment to the order would read, the first would be a number of the paragraphs, one, two, three, four, rather than just having bullets. So we could say, and then the last paragraph, such information, That such information which is available, as I said, which is available shall be provided to the city council within 60 days from the passage of this order. Provided further that the Department of Public Works shall produce information in response to number one
▶ 1:54:47 John N. Tramontozzi: within 60 days and thereafter provide the city council further information every three months. And then go on, if the relevant department heads require additional times, that's okay. The rest of it's okay. You got it? On that motion, the amendment, all in favor? Aye. Aye. Any opposed? So now we have before us an order with an amended. Mr. Chairman, I would- Yes, McMaster. I would make a motion to recommend for passage as amended. Second. Okay, so now we have a motion to recommend the order as amended for passage by Councillor McMaster, seconded by Councillor Lipper-Garabedian. Any further discussion? Councillor Butchery. Through the Chair. I was curious if you would also entertain a motion to add language to number one
▶ 1:55:50 Shawn M. MacMaster: as amended regarding providing the formats in which we would like that data provided. I'm not a voting member of this committee, so you'll go for it. The format being written versus, through, go ahead. My apologies, through the chair. I wouldn't be opposed to that, I just, the reason I didn't, and I appreciate also what Mr. Morose conveyed about the format and what Councillor Bewtra indicated as well. guess the reason I wasn't specific is I just felt as if that's more of a executive executive office function to determine the actual means but there is an opportunity through this for us hopefully with the new administration to have a conversation about what that might look like but I'm certainly not
▶ 1:56:46 Shawn M. MacMaster: opposed to it I just that's why I wasn't very specific with what the format would be because I just believe that the order itself would hopefully compel the administration to produce the information in the most easily accessible, viewable, and transparent way. That's the only reason why I didn't include it, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it if this committee wanted to add language that's more specific about the format. If I may suggest, we could leave it the way it is and then further, once the information becomes available, we could always revisit this and further instruct the information available in other formats. Thank you. Yeah, I think, I mean, just in my experience with this type of data, having listings of
▶ 1:57:46 Manisha Bewtra: can be sort of hard to comprehend and in a print PDF map would be really great but I think the ability to see patterns quantify kind of what's going on would absolutely benefit me it would be beneficial to have the data in electronic format so I don't know if they feel strongly that those amendments need to be made to the order but I encourage the counselors who will be reviewing this as it continues past tonight to make sure that we get that electronically as well thank you any further discussions we have a motion on the on the floor and which has been seconded for recommend for passage all in favor all right any opposed seeing none so this order will be sent to the full board as recommended for passage before we hit before we uh to obtain a motion to adjourn
▶ 1:58:46 John N. Tramontozzi: uh just if i could have a moment of personal privilege i just want to congratulate all those who have participated in the the election process and all those who were elected for various city positions mayor city council school committee I look forward to serving with Mayor Broder and the new city council elected members. Historically, this board calls for a caucus to elect the president on the first Monday in December. This year will be December 2nd, and I'm publicly announcing that it's my intent to seek election to the presidency of the board. And I would ask the councilor's consideration in that, and I appreciate that. Thank you. Anything else? President Forbes may have more to say about this, but please, for members of the public,
▶ 1:59:54 Scott M. Forbes: There will be a lot of solemn observances of Veterans Day over this weekend. I won't delve into the, it's easily accessible to find out the schedule and the information. But for citizens of Melrose who would like to participate in those observances, just check it out and President Forbes may have a little more to say about that. I know tomorrow morning at the Melrose Veterans Memorial Middle School, they have their Veterans Day Assembly. Also on Saturday, we're actually proud to announce that we will be having an inaugural comedy event that launches the Bill Forbes Foundation. This foundation is going to be locally grown here in Melrose to help veteran causes and certain projects that I know that my dad was very, very passionate about, so we're happy
▶ 2:00:57 Scott M. Forbes: to launch that. That'll be Saturday night at the VFW in Melrose at 428 Main Street, and then on Monday there will be Veterans Day observances, I believe starting at 10 o'clock over at Memorial Hall where they'll do the memorial walk as such. SO WE HOPE TO SEE AS MANY PEOPLE FROM THE GENERAL PUBLIC OUT THERE. THANK YOU. MOTION ADJOURNED, MR. CHAIRMAN. WE HAVE A MOTION TO ADJOURN BY COUNSELOR MORTEMER. IS THERE A SECOND? SECOND. SECONDED BY COUNSELOR LIPA-GARABEDE. ALL IN FAVOR? THANK YOU. ANY POSSIBILITY? NONE. WE ARE ADJOURNED. THANK YOU. GOOD EVENING.