ORDER-2020-37 : Request for the City of Melrose to produce infrastructural data relating to all municipal sewer lines.

Transcript (~58 min @ 1:00:48)

Speakers identified by voice; unnamed voices are numbered within this recording. Auto-caption text — verify against the video.

▶ 1:00:47 John N. Tramontozzi: Our second order on the agenda this evening is order 2020-37. It's a request for the city of Melrose to produce infrastructural data relating to all municipal sewer lines. And this is an order that's sponsored by Councilor Sean McMaster as well as President Scott Forbes. We'd like to hear from the maker of the other sponsor of the motion.

▶ 1:01:12 Shawn M. MacMaster: Thank you, thank you Mr. Chairman. I'd like to first thank the residents who came to speak on this order tonight. I know it wasn't easy for you to come and speak publicly about such personal experience that you endured. So thank you for that, and I think I can speak on behalf of all of my colleagues here that on behalf of the city, we're sorry for what you went through. I'd also like to thank President Forbes for co-sponsoring this order with me. Three significant sewer backups in Ward 5 within the last year gave impetus to this order. June 12, 2008 on Waverly Place, February 8, 2019 on Crescent Ave, and June 20, 2019 on Brazil Street. In each of these cases, the problem originated in the main sewer line, which the city of course is responsible for maintaining I was made aware of each backup after a

▶ 1:02:08 Shawn M. MacMaster: resident reached out to me directly when three significant sewer backups happen in a year's time I think that it warrants the attention of this body and that we have a responsibility to find out more now I do realize that we're entitled to information from city departments upon request and that I could have simply sought this information that is contained in this order by just asking for it but in light of what brazil street illuminated in terms of the state and age of that sewer line i think we owe it to our residents for this inquiry to be a public one as opposed to an administrative one this order would do four things the first

▶ 1:02:54 Shawn M. MacMaster: element of the order would require the administration to put together a street directory that lists the age of all sewer mains in the city and i would expect after uh i have an opportunity to speak and uh more on this order and president forbes speaks that council of the garabedian will speak she's planted the seeds for some of this work with some of her proactiveness in reaching out to dpw on some related questions so there's some work already underway that i think this will provide some additional momentum for and compel the next administration to produce this information and work collaboratively with us to understand the size and scope of this problem. Simply put, the public has a right to know the age of the infrastructure under their street. That info should not only be available, but it should be easily accessible. I also think that prospective residents as potential consumers of municipal services should know what they're buying into from a utility perspective. Also, this element of the order would be instructive to the incoming mayor in that it can help to map out a prioritization plan.

▶ 1:04:16 Shawn M. MacMaster: The second part of the order would produce a complete listing of any and all sewer backups of which the Department of Public Works was notified during the 2017, 2018, and 2019 calendar years categorized by date of occurrence and street address. I think this would be informative to this board to get an idea as to whether or not there are particular areas of the city neighborhoods where we're seeing more problems.

▶ 1:04:50 Shawn M. MacMaster: Without this information, I really would be hesitant as a member of this council to vote on any requests for money related to sewer work until we really have a macro perspective of our sewer infrastructure. The third and fourth elements of this order relate to insurance. It would disclose a complete listing of any and all related insurance claims filed during 2017, 2000 and 2000, 2018 and 2019, those calendar years, backups occurring at both residential and commercial properties, as well as a complete listing of any and all pending awarded, both partial and full, and denied insurance claims filed during that same time period, again, for backups occurring at both residential and commercial properties. What I've seen over the last year is that there are inequities, real inequities in how the city's insurance company processes claims filed by residents. There is absolutely no incentive for the city's insurance company to expedite claims. Brazil Street was only expedited at the request of our legal office because of the attention that it drew.

▶ 1:06:09 Shawn M. MacMaster: But understanding that most cases never get any media attention, it's to the insurance company's benefit and to the city's benefit as it relates to the premium that we pay to really kick the can down the road until people either give up or until their focus inevitably turns to other responsibilities, priorities, or problems that life throws their way. To me, this is not only unfair, it's unconscionable. Waverly Place took nine months before they were offered an insulting partial settlement. And I question whether or not they would have been offered anything had it not been for my eventual involvement. Creston Ave took almost five months before they received an outright denial letter. And you heard Ms. Moore talk a little bit about her experience. The letter acknowledges that the problem happened in the main sewer line. And the letter in part says claims brought against municipalities are governed by Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 258. This statute provides immunities and defenses to the city for claims brought by third parties. For example, the quote discretionary function defense shields municipal officials from liability for decisions involving public policy planning. Please be advised that the City of Melrose is immune from liability for claims based on an allegation that it has an inadequate sewer monitoring system. So this relates to sovereign immunity. My colleagues may remember when Mr. Van Campen was here, he talked about sovereign immunity. I think we all understand the purpose of sovereign immunity is to ensure that municipalities don't become bankrupt. understand that but sovereign immunity protects the city and our liability

▶ 1:08:11 Shawn M. MacMaster: insurance protects the city but our residents are not protected when there are clear-cut cases where problems originate in the main sewer line and cause damage to people's homes and the three backups of which were aware two of them which residents spoke about tonight in brazil street which we are all well aware of the facts are are strikingly similar grease and debris in the main sewer line in addition so that's across the board that's a brazil street waverly crescent and with beyond the state of those three sewer lines in addition to that there were actions and inactions that were contributing factors um and i want to acknowledge that mistakes happen and that's why this statute talks about the you know discretionary function um there's no one way to respond it's not you know the police don't have discretion to not respond to a call or to to the fire department doesn't have discretion to not respond when it has a call but there are discretionary policy decisions that that city departments make and i understand that and i And I also want to acknowledge and I think the residents both who are here and also the Brazil Street residents had nothing but positive things to say about the DPW workers. Regardless again of actions or inactions that may have contributed to the problem, they were treated with respect. And they had nothing but positive things to say to me. So I just think that's important to say publicly. I think Superintendent Stinson, that's important for you to communicate to your team that throughout these three ordeals, people have had nothing but positive things to say about our DPW workers. But I do think, you know, we do have to acknowledge beyond the similarities of the grease and debris in the main sewer line, Brazil Street, we know that there was too much water pressure applied when attempting to clear the line. Waverly, the crew jetted in the wrong direction. That is memorialized in a DPW report. Crescent, the blockage was cleared up to the first manhole cover, but not further up to the second manhole cover which resulted in that second backup so these these are problems that didn't originate in the private lateral lines they originated in the main sewer line our residents are not responsible for monitoring or maintaining those lines so this particular request for insurance information is important because if it reveals a larger pattern of claims being outright denied or partial partially yet insufficiently awarded then I think we as a city should contemplate the merits of dropping our liability insurance to pursue self insurance now I'm not saying that we do that but I think we have to have a candid conversation as a council and with the next administration and with the city solicitor and with the superintendent of DPW about potentially self-insurance other municipalities do it and I think considering what we know what we heard from residents tonight it would behoove us to at least have that conversation what that would do is there would be a block of money that would be earmarked from our operating budget specifically for the purpose of insurance because to me understanding what people have gone through and knowing why other municipalities self-insure it's really the only way that we as the city can truly hold ourselves accountable to our residents when we are culpable for a problem that caused them harm and hardship we owe it to our residents to at least consider this finally in addition to evaluating the future of our insurance in the city knowing the number of claims filed and the status and outcomes of those claims i think in in doing that we will be helping to raise awareness with the public so that they can better protect themselves and their property if they know that it's unlikely that the city will ever compensate them so this could perhaps prompt homeowners to add an insurance rider for sewer coverage on their homeowners insurance policy but most people don't have that rider on their insurance and i don't think most people know to even consider that but i think if this illuminates a larger problem and we have an idea about how many claims, and Mr. Moreau has more information than I do on this, about the number of claims that are, you know, where there's no award, where it's a complete zero, the public has a right to know that and should know that. Because if we're not going to protect them, then they need to do what they can do to protect themselves. And if that's adding a rider on their homeowners insurance policy, then they should do that. But I don't think people are going to know to do that unless they have the information before them. For all of these reasons, I think that this order is really in the best interest of public welfare. I think that it is in the spirit of transparency, and I would respectfully ask for your support this evening in passing this favorably in committee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

▶ 1:13:23 Speaker 3: Very good. President Forbes.

▶ 1:13:26 Scott M. Forbes: Thank you. I appreciate all the McMasters. Very well said. I'm not going to reemphasize points that were already said here this evening. In addition to the three occurrences that Council McMaster referred to, there's also a fourth one I know in Ward 7 which occurred on Memorial Day weekend at the Cargill residence on Fairfield Avenue because I got that phone call as we were getting a walk in the Memorial Day parade. So when you have these occurrences that are supposed to be sudden and unexpected occurrences that are occurring in batches, we need to have a bigger conversation. I'm the request for this order is to be able to to collect data because I think we're all data driven and to be able to sit down and take a look at this and take a deeper dive and try to see if there are any next steps if we don't have that conversation we're going to be in the same boat and where we are months and months down the road and who's to say that another occurrence is going to happen and then that's on us you know because we owe it to ourselves and our residents and everyone here in the community to make sure that we're doing the right thing and as far as insurance settlements are concerned just because a resident settles for insurance doesn't necessarily mean that they're satisfied satisfied with the outcomes they think that that is at that point in time maybe the only option that they have so they can move on and try to get life returned to some type of normalcy i know we experienced that on brazil street most recently as well as the other residents that spoke here tonight and very passionate we have 100 year old sewer lines if you move into

▶ 1:15:05 Scott M. Forbes: your residence and live there for 10 years you're contributing factor to the lines but for a period of over a hundred years and if these lines aren't monitored how do we know and who is to you know how how do we know what the source is so again you know this is an order that makes you know it's the first step in having a better conversation on how what we need to do identify the problems and figure out a solutions on where we need to be in terms of our infrastructure we say this all the time we need to invest more aggressively in our infrastructure not only because of the impact that it makes but also we have water lines where water doesn't hit the houses because they're old and they leak and we have sewer lines that collect inflow and infiltration every time there's a storm and it hits the master meter going out that in terms gives us higher water and sewer bills we've been talking about it for years if we make this investment in our water and sewer lines now we will see an immediate cost benefit but also in terms of public safety it'll be a benefit to all residents here in the city of mountains thank you

▶ 1:16:13 John N. Tramontozzi: very good um council all over the garage thank you and we're under suspension of rules currently

▶ 1:16:17 Speaker 5: i believe still yes we have would you mind joining us director stinson thank you thank you very much

▶ 1:16:34 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: for being here tonight um sorry um and i know we haven't had a chance to meet in person but i wanted to say you have been incredibly responsive with a lot of emails that i've shared with you over the summer since you've come on board with constituent questions and my own questions and I'm really appreciative of you being attuned to them and timely in your responses so thank you very much one thing that you and I have talked a little bit about over the over email has been providing more information to the residents and so I'm very appreciative of counselor McMaster and president Forbes for suggesting this as a way to just get more information to people so that they can be more savvy consumers of city services and have a better sense of how the city views the infrastructure in their area one thing that DPW has put out that residents have really liked was a map of all of the street conditions it's helpful for them to see what their condition looks like and then how that compares around the city so I think you know the first part of this request about a street directory listing the age of all sewer mains in the city is sort of similar to that and could be really useful what we've been talking about you and I is figuring out a way to let each resident be able to query his or her own home and figure out exactly what the private the private part of the system its condition its age how what wide it is and we've talked a little bit about how that's already been undertaken which is really great to hear but that that's a very tedious process because you've sent me pictures of what it looks like from my own house and I put it up in my newsletter today just so people could see it but those are handwritten they're more than a century old maybe and so someone has to scan that and then decipher it and then enter it into a database and so that's going to take some time I'm wondering what about this one the idea of just creating a directory listing the age of the mains themselves and I see on our website it says we have 78 miles of sewer mains right and it kind of all goes together

▶ 1:18:43 Speaker 6: and what I shared the councilwoman is that the we have 17,000 water cards we have 8,500 sewer cards and those cards are all done in handwriting done over the years since they were from the beginning when water mains went in and there might be some that there are no cards for and to give you an example of kind of what happened well first all that data needs to be scrubbed and looked at and I'll give you an example why we take you take ties off of a building to locate a water main or a sewer sewer main or a sewer service or a water service years ago they might tie that to a tree now you come along now and that trees gone so that data all needs to be looked at carefully because you're liable to put something out there that is not true and that's just the nature of the cards it's not Melrose it's every place around we've been working on that data and getting those cards into the system for quite a while and it's just time-consuming and expensive in every town's doing it the every community I was doing in Wakefield we're still not done it takes time it takes money needs to be done right now we have about five thousand fifty five hundred cards done on the water side out of the 17,000 on the suicide there are about 2,000 that have been done you know there's a limited staff and engineering that's doing that we've done it a lot of it with consultants and the consultant cost would be probably over $50,000 and that I would have to confirm to finish that up that also ties in that work ties in with the mains because you document the main work at the same time the age when it was put in the type of material the pipe material and all of that we're about probably have 40% where we can tie on a map the sewer segments with the street name in the age of the name but then you have the material you want to know all that stuff so it's just a lot of work to in looking at the order I to say you want that and I think I know if was 30 or 45 days it's impossible to give you that component of what you're looking for here it's just not there to do unfortunately i wish i could but it's not there to do it's going to take some time and money to do that can we so we i've been talking about maybe

▶ 1:21:52 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: the hookups and um right and then this order is talking about the mains and i understand there are 78 miles of maine so how i mean what and what chunks are maine so for in other words if i know my house is at 21 is it that you know and it was installed in 1910 you know how far down would I mean how can you kind of describe how you know where you know one part of the main begins and ends or they do those cards okay but

▶ 1:22:22 Speaker 6: they also will have plans sometimes of when mains were replaced so if you put a new main in on the street today and you go pot way down we're gonna have a brand plan that says what that is type of material on the other one if something was put in 100 years ago you're looking at a tie card to say what that age was and you know there's dates on them you saw the cards there's dates there's material um and there's width there's there's the dimension right

▶ 1:22:56 Speaker 5: to the pipe and that type of stuff are there different dimensions for different mains in the

▶ 1:22:59 Speaker 6: the city yeah you could have um you try not to do anything less than eight inch today but there are mains that could be depending on the street if there was one house it could be what is a two inch main which is basically a service they could go up all the way to um the largest one i had in Wakefield was 16 and 20 inches so you probably have a 20 size main that's on

▶ 1:23:27 Speaker 6: water on sewer they can go probably 8 12 usually doesn't go over 12 but it might

▶ 1:23:37 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: go to 16 is there a reason why you have to undertake the inventorying of sewer and water at the exact same time or could we prioritize just sewer given the traumatic experiences that we've seen over the last year you you do it

▶ 1:23:51 Speaker 6: together because you're building something for that street so what you're gonna do is you if you did one then you're gonna kind of go back and it's

▶ 1:24:02 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: you're really adding cost to the whole project it's not efficient that way if you're already in one portion you're sort of able to look at both more

▶ 1:24:09 Speaker 6: quickly and if someone needed right now if someone needed to know what their service line was or their um the main in the street they can easily call us and we can tell you that because we'd look it up individually but to put it all on a on the plan is what's taking

▶ 1:24:30 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: time and so i think i maybe you have disabused me of a misunderstanding that in fact the work that you were doing to code all the service lines is is a necessary component of coding all of the main lines in other words you cannot there's no way to expedite you could do the main

▶ 1:24:48 Speaker 6: separately okay but it's easier just to kind of tie it all together now if you were to do

▶ 1:24:53 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: the main separately i'm hearing you can't do it within i think the order asks within 30 days what is a and when you were emailing with me you suggested it could be through 2020 that you're going to be completing the work on all of the the service lines right for the um for the service

▶ 1:25:07 Speaker 6: stuff um the main stuff would be done quicker but it's i'd have to really sit down with a consultant in engineering and talk about time frame what can is realistic to get that done

▶ 1:25:23 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: one thing that um i appreciate about you being here is that you have a lot of experience in another municipality and you sort of reference that a little bit in suggesting that perhaps our infrastructure isn't necessarily different from wakefield can you speak a little bit about

▶ 1:25:40 Speaker 6: the differences between the two sure the you know the the infrastructure is the same i mean just because a pipe is old does not mean it's not good um and uh there are a lot of mains

▶ 1:25:54 Speaker 6: that exist whether it be sewer or water that are in great shape that are old there are

▶ 1:26:03 Speaker 6: There are sewer and water mains that are not in great shape. There are also sewer and water mains that you can look at, and I'll tell you about one that happened in Wakefield, that look, if you looked at it, I looked at it having knowledge, and I had engineers look at it that were specialists that when they looked at it, it looked like it was 100% perfect. It was the best main in the world, and it went back over probably 80 years, and this

▶ 1:26:37 Speaker 6: was a water main, and what we found was, and I had two breaks that cost a fortune on Green Street in Wakefield, and one was 200 feet apart, and it was a 16-inch water main. A 16-inch water main does a tremendous amount of damage, and it did in both cases. and we sent it out to a lab to just analyze it and what they were when you read it these features in the the main you can't see with the normal eye and unless you put it under a microscope you don't even know it's there and did that cause the problem we still don't know to this day was it the traffic the heavy traffic on the road that caused the problem made it break was it the pressure in the pipe it's interesting that both incidents happened on the same weekend two years apart okay um and we still don't know um so there are things that like that that you can never explain i i can tell you in this case the issue you're talking about insurance the funny thing about today is Wakefield's insurance company Melrose insurance company it's an act of God the homeowners insurance company it's an act of God and it's like pointing fingers at each other I don't have the answer to that I mean that's something that I think you guys need to look at and we sit there we kind of scratch our heads sometimes on that response it aggravates us it's not something that we like to have happen in terms of looking at sewer lines as was mentioned it ongoing all the time with the MWRA money and the inflow infiltration money it is very expensive just to analyze the sewer main between TV work and you can't with the TV camera that the city bought you're not going to analyze all the sewer mains with that it's you don't have enough labor or time to do that or necessarily they're different sized cameras so you need different sized cameras so consultants come in and they will analyze a section they will TV a section smoke test a section and then they'll go out and make the repairs to that entire section to do the entire city which you're trying to do i mean we're still doing it in wakefield we've been working at it for 20 years to go through that entire setup it takes a lot of time and a lot of money to just analyze it and then you

▶ 1:29:40 Speaker 6: got the repair cost and you fix them as you you go greece greece is interesting you don't know necessarily where it's coming from you can guess sometimes greece is a problem in every city there are some things you can do to help with that and i think one of the things that um mr mcmaster mentioned was you look at the um locations of where there have been grease backups then you can set a program up to go out and flush those frequently and i don't believe i know they go out and flush frequently but maybe that needs a tweaking in the schedule But looking at those past breaks or past grease blockages helps if you get grease with tree roots that are growing in there or You get something that gets flushed down the system and catches on the tree roots Like one of the worst things that can happen and you just don't know about it

▶ 1:30:47 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: So two tree roots are another major issue just my last question. I was gonna ask you about the camera so is that is that part of your toolbox at this point we use it all the time and what are you so what do you use it for if you know so it's not going to be a particularly helpful tool necessarily for some of this comprehensive work but I'm assuming you use it for you know pinpointing particular issues that are

▶ 1:31:09 Speaker 6: arising right we can go a certain distance there are cameras that go much longer in a sewer main or drain or line um so we can really look at some spots and some isolated spots to figure that out okay and figure if there's an issue there

▶ 1:31:28 Speaker 5: okay but we use it all the time so it's more for triage as opposed to like an ongoing project okay

▶ 1:31:35 Speaker 3: thank you very much uh councilman mortimer thank you very much i'm i'm going to uh i support the

▶ 1:31:40 Peter D. Mortimer: spirit of this order i'm not sure if an amendment would be appropriate in light of mr stinson's uh director stimson's um comments that it might be hard if we want to do this but we don't want to delay there's been there's been enough uh heartache as we saw here um and it's terrible i really like the spirit of it um that you know it's

▶ 1:32:10 Peter D. Mortimer: It's an insurance program, but before I proceed, I want to thank you very much. I had some people in Ward 6 who have problems with storm water. And that's not as bad as sewage, of course. But you've already taken some remediation steps to make sure that for the winter months, that flooding problem would be mitigated, and thank you very much. And you've also been responsive to any other questions I've had since you've been in place. appreciate that very much you do a wonderful job and no one's no one's

▶ 1:32:46 Peter D. Mortimer: malicious you know for the people out there you know though these blocks I

▶ 1:32:59 Peter D. Mortimer: hate to compare it to cancer but that's kind of what it is you're going along in life and you think everything's fine and then who you feel pain you go to the doctor and you have cancer and that's the way it is with these sewer lines a You know, everything's flowing, everything's flowing, everything's great, and all of a sudden you get a backup. And it's especially true, President Forbes mentioned another one that he had. I know somebody on Willow Street who had the same problem. And I like your idea that you see these areas, but what we see a lot, it's these low-lying areas, where the pitch of the gravity for the pipes makes it more inclined. If you live on a steep hill, you're probably not as inclined, unless you live at the bottom of a steep hill, like Brazil Street. And besides the insurance rider that was mentioned, which is a wonderful idea that people might become aware of that. Also, if you're in a low area, and I'm not trying to play Monday morning quarterback or second guess anyone who's here in the room, is you might think about a back flow preventer or a check valve in your own plumbing. And that's something you might do, and that might bring the problem more to awareness, especially if you're in a low lying or a flat area besides the rider on insurance. And speaking of insurance, I don't like insurance companies because you hit the nail on the head. We all point fingers at each other, and they hope.

▶ 1:34:40 Peter D. Mortimer: And at public participation, I really appreciated the comments that were made. But one thing that just because the city settles doesn't mean that they're admitting culpability. What it means is they just want the suit to go away, and it's cheaper to make the suit go away. And the insurance companies play the same terrible game where they just keep stringing you along and stringing you along. And they make you sue them, knowing that most people won't sue. And even when they do, they'll just string it out because they'd rather keep the money in their bank account, collecting interest, than make the payout in an expeditious and just and fair manner. They're horrible. And that's part of the problem. So maybe the idea of self insurance would be a good idea, But we have to be careful we don't get too drained. You know, there's a lot, this is a giant ball of yarn. Insurance companies are awful. And you know, with the car insurance, you can see why they play games with that, because there are some people who fake. But if you have sewage in your house, there's no faking. You know, with the car insurance and personal injury, there's some people who fake. So you can see why they might play hardball in that arena. But when it comes to, hey, I got raw sewage, brown liquid, as was mentioned earlier, in my basement, you take a picture of it, there's no debate. What, are people going to fake that to try to collect insurance? Who would do that to themselves? That would be insane. But the insurance companies, the way they work, you pay over $100,000 over 20 years buying your car insurance. You get in a $5,000 accident after you've given them $100,000 and they want to give you a surcharge. And then they got this new thing, accident forgiveness, which is really they just want you to buy more insurance on your regular insurance, so you don't get a surcharge. You have to insure your own insurance. Not a big fan of the insurance companies, as you can tell, and you hit the nail on the head with that, and it's a shame that when it's somebody's home, you know, it's bad enough when it's your car if it's just damage. It's worse if you've been personally injured and you're trying to get well and they're playing games with you. When it's your own home where you live, and you're trying to enjoy home, the one place in the world where you're supposed to feel safe and secure and comfortable. And the insurance company's playing games. And hopefully that situation will be remediated soon. But I appreciate your comments on it. I really appreciate this order. I'm glad to see we're going to be moving towards doing something about the way the system is now. the system as it presently exists is not working well for people thank you very much i have council abutra next and then council maderos and mcmaster if there's anybody else let me know

▶ 1:37:44 Manisha Bewtra: thank you um i first wanted to thank the residents who came to speak tonight um i think it just really drives the point home of why this order um was put forth when we hear those personal stories I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK REALLY DISTURBED ME WHEN WE WERE LEARNING ABOUT BRAZIL STREET WAS THIS NOTION THAT WE AS COUNCILORS SHOULDN'T REALLY BE BOTHERED WITH THESE INCIDENTS WHEN THEY HAPPEN. I KNOW, I MEAN, WE DISCUSSED THIS AD NAUSEAM WITH REGARDS TO BRAZIL STREET, BUT I THINK THINKING ABOUT SORT OF THE NEXT ADMINISTRATION AND THE NEW COUNCILORS WHO WILL BE IN THIS horseshoe one of the things i hope is for more partnership and more regular information sharing on these types of incidents i can imagine that that in and of itself could become unwieldy so i can understand if there's hesitation but i think ultimately um using the counselors as partners who are live in this community and are often here when um staff are at home uh after hours and things like that could actually you know help with these issues around communication and the feeling that the residents expressed tonight around um having a presence from city hall absolutely there should be someone from the mayor's office and dpw or police um you know on the scene when things happen but i think having the counselors have a role could really um help change that the reality of what's actually happening on the ground but also the perception of the city caring about its residents or the city capital c um i think uh you know it sounds like this process will take some time um i would encourage you and your successor uh to provide some regular updates on how that data is you know coming along and I want to thank my colleagues councillor McMaster and president Forbes for putting this order forth as well as councillor Lipper-Garabedian for the work she's been doing in terms of having more of this information shared with the broader public I agree with comment from the public regarding having this information available electronically again I don't know what kind of like large database or how that what that's going to look like I think there's definite benefit in having printed a printed street directory as well as printed maps because not everyone's going to be tech savvy but I think having access to the data so members of the public who want to kind of dig into what's going on whether it's their own home or understanding more systemically can download that information and and maybe map it on their own would be very valuable additionally we have our online gis system and so my hope is that um and you know i think i was surprised i thought i had seen it there in the past but maybe i never did um that that our sewer lines were actually part of our online gis layers um and having as this data is developed if it can be added into the not necessarily all the details about the insurance claims but the details on the sewer mains and their the age of the infrastructure be incorporated into that online gs gis system i think that'd be extremely helpful um for the moment those are my comments i i appreciate your time tonight and thank you for filling in uh in this role um until until your successor comes on board i very much appreciate everything i'm hearing about your work in the department um since you've begun uh and that's it for now thank you very good councilman thank you uh yes thank you too i'd

▶ 1:41:52 Monica C. Medeiros: like to first also to to thank you for the responsiveness that that i've experienced since i've brought several resident concerns and and some of them have been very very happy so i just want to pass that on to you and say i appreciate that um i do definitely support this order and i i want to thank counselor mcmaster and president forbes for bringing this forward i i think it's so important that we are looking at the data and that we are putting this together and in planning out the actions that you know we take as a community moving forward to we heard from the residents and many of us along the way that it's i can't even imagine what living through an experience like that must be like and that it's so important that we do whatever we can to make take steps that something like that doesn't happen again and or at least to minimize

▶ 1:42:57 Monica C. Medeiros: the occurrence at minimum um uh in regard to the street listing and and so just uh sort of jumping back to the insurance claims and and how we're handling these and the discrepancies that we hear about i just i do think and i hope that we are i think it's so important for the next administration in particular to come up with really a clear set of policies and procedures on how these things are handled and i think that would help if there's a clear set of actions and how the mayor's office responds if there's something like this comes up and that there's something that can be shared with the public on how the claims process is handled if if something like this happens so that everybody knows up front and has the same set of expectations but to the street listing part of this and i i wonder if you know and obviously again i'm not

▶ 1:43:56 Monica C. Medeiros: a voting member of this committee but it seems to me that it would be beneficial to have what we do have already cataloged even knowing that maybe we're not through with it and it may take you know many many more months in order to complete it is it possible that we could get what we've done so far in 30 days from the passage of this order i can look at that yeah okay i i mean i

▶ 1:44:24 Monica C. Medeiros: i think we can but i i'd want to confirm that so i for one i think that would be beneficial and And that would be acceptable to the makers.

▶ 1:44:30 Speaker 2: I hope we would do that. Thank you. Very good.

▶ 1:44:37 John N. Tramontozzi: We have Councilman McMaster in this.

▶ 1:44:39 Shawn M. MacMaster: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really do appreciate the work being done to date, the efforts of DPW and the engineering department to really help us understand the state of both sewer and water. i'm optimistic that if we're at 40 i think you said superintendent stinson of the sewer uh segments with the connected to the actual street name that um perhaps after hearing back from you we might be able to at least get that as council madera said within the next 30 days i'm not you know opposed and would certainly if any of my colleagues had an amendment would not be opposed to some amendment that would either extend the period of time relative to the main sewer line information particularly the the street directory the one concern i have is i really do not want this to be a project to nowhere and i think as somebody who's spent my career in state government sometimes that happens and it happens just because of the nature of the work and the priorities that that government officials deal with on a daily basis. So I think if we're able to find an amendment that is satisfactory to the committee to move along, I would like to find one in a way that ensures that it's not too far out, but at the same time, it's manageable for our city departments. You know, whether or not that is a series of status dates or status date where what we have by a certain date is reported and then we reevaluate. But I do think there needs to be, you know, some information at least initially produced and then, again, a status date or a further out date to allow some time for the street listing. As it relates to the insurance information, I do think that 30 days is reasonable for that. If it is, as Mr. Moreau said, 20 or so, and who knows, maybe it's much more than that, that information should be easily accessible by both the city solicitor and DPW. So I think that is reasonable.

▶ 1:47:06 Shawn M. MacMaster: Um, so I, uh, I, I just don't want to, um, like I said, uh, have this, um, not go anywhere. And, um, there is a level of urgency as we heard, uh, from the residents. Um, yeah, I've been in all six homes. President Forbes has been in the four on Brazil street. And as Ms. Bentley said, they went through a winter without insulation. crescent street they had a beautiful finished basement you can see the damage still they don't have the means by which to address that damage so what i think this will help us do is put ourselves in a better position to mitigate the chances of something like this happening and it is not an easy undertaking to both i think produce this information as you've represented superintendent stinson but also to address it but we need to start and the the affirmative way to do that is to have the data and work uh collaboratively as counselor butra said with the administration so i um i say that just to give a cue to my colleagues that i'd be open to some sort of an amendment so long as it's a reasonable uh extension or again like i said a status um series of status dates thank you mr chairman any further discussion

▶ 1:48:24 John N. Tramontozzi: What's the will of the committee?

▶ 1:48:27 Peter D. Mortimer: Further discussion? Yeah, further discussion. If in the most friendly and respectful manner, perhaps it would be best if the maker would proffer the amendment. Out of respect for the hard work you've done, it may be best if that came from you, sir.

▶ 1:48:47 Shawn M. MacMaster: Through the chair, I believe Councilor Lipper-Garabedian may have a suggestion.

▶ 1:48:50 Speaker 5: I'll defer. I'll yield my time to see if the maker of the order would like to suggest a-

▶ 1:48:55 Shawn M. MacMaster: I'm really interested in hearing from my colleagues to see if what others think and then we can take it from there.

▶ 1:49:01 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: Then with my time I mean perhaps there's a way to propose an amendment to the first sentence of the final paragraph where it says such information shall be provided to the City Council within 30 days from the passage of this order and then it provided that phrase here and I'm you know I haven't quite written it down yet provided that DPW shall produce information in response to the first item as available within 30 days and thereafter provide the City Council with updated information every

▶ 1:50:01 Speaker 3: three months something along those lines any other comments uh councillors uh thank you mr chairman

▶ 1:50:09 John N. Tramontozzi: wait i'm sorry is that a motion or am i just let's just further let's just talk about it for a second

▶ 1:50:16 Michael P. Zwirko: before we put in a form of a motion thank you sorry uh so thank you mr chairman um i i do like some of the wording that was proposed by uh councillor Letter garabedian i was thinking though maybe that if we just alter the first bullet versus the last paragraph it might be a little bit simpler but it also might just be semantics so understood that we still need director stinson to follow up given the time frame because he's not sure even the data that's available today might be able to be turned around within 30 days so i think we still have to wait to hear from him uh on the time frame of that that being said it seems like the the bullets the second third and fourth bullets are okay the issue is really with the data and availability of the items with respect to the first bullet so i'm thinking that if we at the end of where it says city of melrose if you just add as available at the passage of this order might might help but but it still doesn't rectify the 30-day provision for the information to be provided, because we don't know if it's readily available or not. But I do think that Alderman Lipper-Garabedian did address that in a proposed language. That was just my comment.

▶ 1:51:34 Shawn M. MacMaster: Mr. Chairman, I would not thank you, Councilor Zabraco. I would actually, considering where we are, it's the start of November, I would not be opposed to, and if this addresses Councilor Zabraco's point about what's available and what is certainly within the means of DPW to potentially consider 60 days. That might be more reasonable because that will get us through the holidays. We won't be meeting all that much around the holidays. So to me, if Councilor Lipper-Garabedian wanted to make the motion with the language and perhaps amend the 30 days to 60 days, I would certainly second that.

▶ 1:52:17 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: Through the chair, I'm happy to move that language for him if that's the will of the maker. So I will suggest that the wording that I provided previously be amended simply to replace well to include that but then to revise the earlier language to say within 60 days. So I would move to amend the order with those two with the additional proviso and then changing 30 to 60.

▶ 1:52:46 John N. Tramontozzi: so I think what I'm hearing here is that well the bullet one two three four should I think we should number them because you kind of referencing the importance of certain information depending on the bullet one two three four and it's such information if available shall be provided to the City Council within 60 days from the passage of this order provided further that Department of Public Works shall produce information in response to number one within 60 days and

▶ 1:53:28 John N. Tramontozzi: thereafter provide the City Council further information every seven months.

▶ 1:53:35 Speaker 3: Three months. I'm sorry, three months, right, every three months.

▶ 1:53:41 Shawn M. MacMaster: If that's in the form of a motion, I would second that, Mr. Chairman.

▶ 1:53:45 Speaker 3: Is that, did that sound okay?

▶ 1:53:47 John N. Tramontozzi: I don't, I don't- And we can make that, Do you want to make that motion?

▶ 1:53:51 Speaker 5: Sure. I'll move that we amend the order as stated. As stated? Mm-hm. As stated.

▶ 1:53:56 John N. Tramontozzi: Okay. Second. There's a second. So, the amendment to the order would read, the first would be a number of the paragraphs, one, two, three, four, rather than just having bullets. So we could say, and then the last paragraph, such information,

▶ 1:54:18 Speaker 3: That such information which is available, as I said,

▶ 1:54:30 John N. Tramontozzi: which is available shall be provided to the city council within 60 days from the passage of this order.

▶ 1:54:38 John N. Tramontozzi: Provided further that the Department of Public Works shall produce information in response to number one

▶ 1:54:51 John N. Tramontozzi: within 60 days and thereafter provide the city council further information every three months.

▶ 1:54:58 John N. Tramontozzi: And then go on, if the relevant department heads require additional times, that's okay. The rest of it's okay.

▶ 1:55:09 John N. Tramontozzi: You got it? On that motion, the amendment, all in favor? Aye. Aye. Any opposed? So now we have before us an order with an amended.

▶ 1:55:21 Shawn M. MacMaster: Mr. Chairman, I would- Yes, McMaster. I would make a motion to recommend for passage as amended.

▶ 1:55:29 John N. Tramontozzi: Second. Okay, so now we have a motion to recommend the order as amended for passage by Councillor McMaster, seconded by Councillor Lipper-Garabedian. Any further discussion?

▶ 1:55:40 Speaker 2: Councillor Butchery.

▶ 1:55:42 Manisha Bewtra: Through the Chair. I was curious if you would also entertain a motion to add language to number one as amended regarding providing the formats in which we would like that data provided. I'm not a voting member of this committee, so you'll go for it.

▶ 1:56:03 John N. Tramontozzi: The format being written versus, through, go ahead.

▶ 1:56:09 Shawn M. MacMaster: My apologies, through the chair. I wouldn't be opposed to that, I just, the reason I didn't, and I appreciate also what Mr. Morose conveyed about the format and what Councillor Bewtra indicated as well. guess the reason I wasn't specific is I just felt as if that's more of a executive executive office function to determine the actual means but there is an opportunity through this for us hopefully with the new administration to have a conversation about what that might look like but I'm certainly not opposed to it I just that's why I wasn't very specific with what the format would be because I just believe that the order itself would hopefully compel the administration to produce the information in the most easily accessible, viewable, and transparent way. That's the only reason why I didn't include it, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it if this committee wanted to add language that's more specific about the format.

▶ 1:57:18 John N. Tramontozzi: If I may suggest, we could leave it the way it is and then further, once the information becomes available, we could always revisit this and further instruct the information available in other formats.

▶ 1:57:37 Manisha Bewtra: Thank you. Yeah, I think, I mean, just in my experience with this type of data, having listings of can be sort of hard to comprehend and in a print PDF map would be really great but I think the ability to see patterns quantify kind of what's going on would absolutely benefit me it would be beneficial to have the data in electronic format so I don't know if they feel strongly that those amendments need to be made to the order but I encourage the counselors who will be reviewing this as it continues past tonight to make sure that we get that electronically as well thank you any further discussions we have a motion on

▶ 1:58:27 John N. Tramontozzi: the on the floor and which has been seconded for recommend for passage all in favor all right any opposed seeing none so this order will be sent to the full board as recommended for passage before we hit before we uh to obtain a motion to adjourn uh just if i could have a moment of personal privilege i just want to congratulate all those who have participated in the the election process and all those who