Appropriations & Oversight Committee — 2023-06-20

Appropriations and Oversight Budget Hearing

This meeting starts at 0:29 in a recording that covers several meetings.

Attendance

Christopher Cinella present; Jack Eccles present; Mark Garipay present; Jen Grigoraitis present · President, Ex Oficio; Maya Jamaleddine late, 7:28 PM · Vice Chair; Manjula Karamcheti present; Shawn M. MacMaster absent; Leila Migliorelli present · Chair; John Obremski absent; Robb Stewart present; Ryan Williams present

Agenda

Minutes

CITY OF MELROSE APPROPRIATIONS & OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE CALENDAR● JUNE 20, 2023 Council Chamber, First Floor, Melrose City Hall Budget Hearing 7:25 PM 562 Main Street, Melrose, MA 02176 Attendee Name Title Status Arrived Leila Migliorelli Chair Present Maya Jamaleddine Vice Chair Late 7:28 PM Shawn M. MacMaster Absent Christopher Cinella Present Jack Eccles Present Mark Garipay Present Robb Stewart Present Manjula Karamcheti Present John Obremski Absent Ryan Williams Present Jen Grigoraitis President, Ex Oficio Present

APPT-2023-18 Appointment Appointment of Kelsey Lima, 53 Pearl Street, Apt. 3, to the Melrose Human Rights Commission, for a three-year term set to expire on the last day of February 2026. Ought to Pass City Council

ORDER-2023-97 Enterprise Fund Proposed FY24 Sewer Rates Ought to Pass City Council

ORDER-2023-98 Enterprise Fund Proposed FY24 Water Rates Ought to Pass City Council

APPRO-2023-26 Appropriation An Appropriation from Free Cash in the amount of $481,600 (Four Hundred Eighty One Thousand Six Hundred Dollars) to capital stabilization fund. Ought to Pass as Amended City Council

APPRO-2023-34 Appropriation City of Melrose Page 1 8/3/2023 4:26 PM Minutes Appropriations & Oversight Committee June 20, 2023 An Appropriation from Free Cash (account 01-324001) in the amount of $66,309.58 to Fire Department-Overtime (012211- 513000). Ought to Pass City Council

APPRO-2023-38 Appropriation An Appropriation from Free Cash (account 01-324001) in the amount of 32,764.60 to Inspection Services Department (#241) for a scanning project. Ought to Pass City Council

APPRO-2023-39 Appropriation An Appropriation from Ambulance Retained Earnings (account 6500-319000) in the amount of $16,300 to Ambulance Professional Services (account 650052-529000). Ought to Pass City Council

APPRO-2023-41 Appropriation An Appropriation from Free Cash (account number 01-324001) in the amount of $86,135.35 to Pine Banks Department (#652) for Capital items. Ought to Pass City Council

APPRO-2023-46 Appropriation An Appropriation From Free Cash (account 01-324001) in the amount of $224,998.80 to the Police Department for overtime costs and a Case Cracker system. Ought to Pass City Council City of Melrose Page 2 8/3/2023 4:26 PM

Transcript

▶ 0:29 Leila Migliorelli: Good evening. The time is 7 25 on Tuesday, June 20th, 2023. This is a meeting the Appropriations and Oversight Committee. I am chairwoman Lila Elli. Also, joining me tonight are counselors, Ella Eccles, repe Stewart Williams, and President Greg Grigoraitis Exofficio. This serves as a notice of a quorum for the record in accordance with the open meeting law. This meeting is being recorded and broadcast live on mm t v. Um, I will motion by unanimous consent to open the floor for public comment. Seeing no objection, we are now open for public comment. This is a portion of the meeting where anyone can speak on any item on our agenda tonight. Seeing no one here in public, is there anyone online? Not at the moment. Okay.

▶ 1:16 Leila Migliorelli: There's no objection. I'd like to close public comment. Seeing none. We are now closed for public comment. Um, on our agendas tonight, you, you'll see we have a public hearing that opens at seven 30. So, um, I'm just going to, uh, motion, uh, unanimously to, um, suspend the rules for members of the administration. Um, so for to hear items that are on our agenda tonight. Um, so motioning by unanimous consent to suspend the rules before we proceed. Seeing no objection, the rules are now suspended. We have three minutes to the public hearing. I think we'll just hang out until the three minutes, because I don't think we should start the next order. Cause I don't think it will wrap up in three minutes.

▶ 2:02 So pause for three minutes. Okay. What Time is seven 30? And I will motion by unanimous consent, um, to open the floor for public hearing for the f y 24 water and sewer rates, which are orders 2023 dash 97 and 2023 dash 98. Seeing no objection, the public hearing is now open. Do we have anyone here or online interested in speaking in the public hearing for water and sewer rates for FY 24? Anyone here? There's no one present at this Time. Okay. If there's no objection, I will motion by unanimous consent to close the public hearing on, um, water and sewer rates. Seeing none, the public hearing is now closed. First on our agendas. Tonight is appointment 2023 dash 18. Appointment of Kelsey Lima, 53 Pearl Street,

▶ 4:24 Paul Brodeur: apartment three to the Melrose Human Rights Commission for a three year term set to expire on the last day of February, 2026. I believe tonight we have Mayor Broder here to speak on this order. Good evening just about everyone. It is good to see you all. I appreciate the opportunity, uh, to be with you here this evening. I look behind you have the, a team here behind me, so I will try to be, uh, brief with this piece of the, of the presentation. So, uh, to my right is Kelsey Lima. She is, um, she has many things. And if you had a chance to take a look, um, at her resume for, I mean, everyone's somewhat young compared to me, but for someone of, uh, of her age, she has a remarkable set of professional accomplishments in

▶ 5:21 Paul Brodeur: the field of social work. Uh, I invite you to peruse the details and perhaps you will share some of that with us this evening, uh, in, in, in her remarks. Uh, but she has really, um, professionally, uh, developed a an incredible set of skills and leads with compassion. She also, very shortly after she arrived in Melrose, stepped forward to serve on, um, the d e i advisory Task Force, uh, that I have that, you know, as you all know, uh, helps me. And this seems to me to be a very logical step, uh, for someone who, again, who has jumped right in and has, um, the background and the communication skills. The, um, really just what, what I did not know that is not on here, I hope you don't mind me sharing this cuz she just shared it with me. Um,

▶ 6:11 Paul Brodeur: is while she was an undergrad, I was talking about on my son is going to London and she mentioned that she spent two weeks in Rwanda, um, as an undergrad, uh, studying and such. So, um, truly worldwide experience that I believe will, uh, inform her judgment and be a huge asset to the Human Rights Commission. So I am enthusi enthusiastically. Recommend for your consideration, uh, Ms. Lima's application. If you wanna say a few words, Feel Free. Uh, thank you for having me here. Um, do I say a little about myself or? Sure, sure. Um, so I'm a, um, a licensed independent clinical social worker, um, for the Department of Public Health. Um, so in Boston, um, and I primarily work with, um, some of, um, Boston's most vulnerable, um,

▶ 7:07 people. Um, they don't have health insurance sometimes. Um, oftentimes they have dual diagnoses, um, with mental health and substance use disorder. Um, so I'm in a public health hospital at, um, state run. And, um, besides that, I use some of my time, um, pro bono, right? Um, doing psychological evaluations for asylum seekers and people who, um, need, um, visas for human trafficking, labor trafficking, um, and various other, um, things that are happening to people. Um, so I enjoy volun volunteering, um, my time outside of, um, my life as a social worker, um, to support, um, my communities. And I think that's mostly about me. I, after undergrad I moved out here, um, which is very different from where I grew up. Um,

▶ 8:07 Manjula Karamcheti: but one of the things I wanted to do was to be, um, engaged in my new community, um, just as I did in, you know, in Salem when I lived in Salem and also where I, um, grew up in the South Shore. Um, so I'm happy to, to be here. Thank you. Thank you. Questions from the committee. Councilor Carm Shady, I'm Ms. Lima. Thank you so much for being here and for your service on the, uh, mayor's task force as well. Um, I know that you co-chaired that and it is a task getting people together for those meetings and that kind of thing. So I totally appreciate your efforts. I'm just curious, would love to hear a little bit more about why you wanna be on the Human Right Human Rights Commission and, you know,

▶ 8:52 if you were able to set agendas and make things happen, what would you like to see happen? Yeah, I think that's a really a loaded question with what I would like to see happen. Cuz there's a lot of things, I think as a, a younger person, um, you know, in, in the city. Um, what was the first question though? Sorry, can the first Question just what makes you wanna be on the Human Rights Commission? Sorry. And what would you like To do? A long drive from Boston. Okay. We totally get it. Drive from Boston. That's right. Um, I wanna be on the Human Rights Commission cuz um, I, you know, human rights is really significant to me in all different ways. I think a lot of times when people think of human rights,

▶ 9:33 I think of really more global, globally and broadly. And I think it really starts right at home. Um, and so that's where I want to be is right at home. And, um, working on that, I do a lot of work in, you know, the broader community and, um, living here, I want to be a, um, a citizen that looks at home too. Awesome. Anything you wanna do on the Human Rights Commission? Um, I think I need, would need more time to kind of see what that would look like. Um, but for me, I, I'm really into just exploring kind of what that might look like and some of my own perspectives coming and, you know, might change as I also, um, you know, look more into like, what what's been going on, um, in the Human Rights Commission. Yeah.

▶ 10:26 Maya Jamaleddine: Excellent. Well, thank you for signing up to be on the Human Rights Commission and I'm really excited about your clinical background. I think doing human rights work and doing diversity, equity, inclusion work, you know, empathy and compassion are so important. So I'm excited that you're bringing that to the group. Thank You. Thank you. Um, thank you, uh, vice Chair Jamal, Thank you. Thank you for, um, stepping up and for, you know, willing to serve, um, our community. I am excited to see someone with your expertise and, um, knowledge be and passion, uh, joining, uh, human Rights Commission. Um, I'm not gonna give you a hard time. I'll ask you, uh, questions, uh, knowing the commute that you, uh, had today. Uh,

▶ 11:14 Maya Jamaleddine: but I'm very excited to see what you will bring to our community and, um, to human, to the Human Rights Commission as well. Um, I know that we have come long way from when I personally moved to Meadows, but also we do have a lot of work to do. So we are all counting on Human Rights Commission and everyone else in the community, and I hope you'll make great change. Thank you. Can Stewart? Yeah, Madam Chair, I'll make a recommendation for full counsel. Second, Um, motion to recommend to full counsel made by Councilor Stewart. Seconded by councilor, um, caram Shady. Anyone on discussion? Seeing none, Mr. Clerk, will you please call the roll Vice chair Jamine? Yes. Councilor Sin? Yes. Councilor Eccles? Yes.

▶ 12:07 Leila Migliorelli: Councilor gpe? Yes. Councilor Stewart? Yes. Councilor Caram Shady? Yes. Yes. Councilor Williams? Yes. President Greg? Yes. And Chair Mi? Yes. That is nine. Yes. Unanimous. Thank you. So this order, um, motion passes, passes and will be brought to the full counsel with a recommendation for passage. Thank you both for being here tonight. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. All right. So we have a council meeting starting at 7 45. We have a lot of other orders on our appropriations and oversight committee agenda. We can dig into sewer rates or adjourn and head into the full council meeting. I'm inclined to maybe move ahead with one. Keep going. Okay. Order 2023 dash 97. Proposed FY 24 sewer rates. Um, tonight we have Elena Pro Ellis,

▶ 13:00 d p w Director here to speak on this order. Welcome. Hi. Thank you. This is specific to sewer, correct? Correct. Okay. Um, so we submitted a memo dated May 31st that you should all have, um, in IQ M two and it summarizes the proposed water and sewer rate increases for fiscal year 24. Um, the sewer rate increase, uh, Well in our memo we've combined them and it's a combined 3.7% increase. Um, the sewer is a little bit less than that and the water is a little bit more, and I can get the exact figures if anybody is interested. But the, um, the proposed sewer rate for the tier one is $12 and 25 cents per hundred cubic feet. And for tier two is 14, excuse me, 1543 per hundred cubic feet. Uh, the sewer meter fees,

▶ 14:01 the base fees go up in the same proportion that we've always had them, which is to be, to represent 10% of the revenue collected for the year comes from base fees. Um, and so the standard base fee for a meter of the typical household would be $26 and 38 cents per quarter. Thank you. Questions from the council? Anyone? Vice chair, Jamal? Thank you. Um, thank you for the explanation. Definitely would like to see the more accurate, um, the breakdown. Sure. Um, sent and attached to, uh, public record. Um, would you mind repeating how much each household will notice increase? Sure. I have, um, we also attached a summary sheet. Let me just find it. Is that the rate increase, Uh, document? It is. There's a,

▶ 15:31 there's a sheet that Donna Cardello put together that's a, um, a summary of the impact to the average user and Jim has it here. Um, okay. So the average household, we consider the average household to be at household using 1800 cubic feet per quarter. Um, the FY 23 average bill in that case was $363 and 48 cents. The average FY 24 bill would be 3 76 97 for a difference of $13 and 49 cents per bill, which is the 3.7%. Okay. And are not sure if this is a valid question, but any population in Mars will, will be, will be able to get any kind of break in from that increase? Yeah. So we have a senior discount and we also have a low income discount. And I believe there are two different levels of the low income discount.

▶ 16:27 Do they have to go through, uh, a process, uh, if they are already in that discount, do they have to go to another process to reapply or No? Uh, it used to be that you needed to resubmit every year because the, like the senior discount is also dependent on water use. Mm-hmm. So if you, um, if you use an excessive amount of water, then you no longer qualify for the senior discount. So typically, um, everybody needs to reapply with Lisa Patterson down in the engineering water sewer billing office. Um, I know they get a lot of the folks through the senior fair as well. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, a lot of folks re up there, but typically she's also, um, she's great Lisa, and she's all over it. And so if she sees somebody who still qualifies and they haven't submitted

▶ 17:15 Maya Jamaleddine: paperwork, she usually reaches out as well. And, um, are these information, um, I'm assuming it is just to mention for the public, uh, available for social worker just in case any of our residents reach out, they will be able To, yeah, it's all available online and they can also, anyone who's listening at home, um, can reach Lisa directly. She's at 7 8 1 9 7 9 4 1 7 5. That's her direct number, so. Okay. And she'd be happy to help anyone who needs it. Okay. Just to name, uh, we know for sure with the inflation and everything that's going on this, regardless how much is the, um, increase. It's gonna be a burden for some of our residents and we hope that we can support in any of the resources that are available. Thank you. Thank you.

▶ 18:05 Mark Garipay: Councilor Gepe and then Councilor Williams. Thank you Madam Chair. Um, just a quick question. You had talked about the average household, um, rate is 16 or 1800 cubic feet. Is that, that what you 1800. 1800. Yeah. And how do we base the average? Is it the prior year, prior five year prior 10? How do we base that Average? So it's, it's fairly consistent. So Donna analyzes the data every year, um, and we update our rate model every year. But it's been, that 1800 has been fairly consistent for pretty much the whole time that I've worked here. Okay. So we didn't see, um, thought we might have saw an increase during C O I D, um, during covid with people at home a lot more, but we haven't seen that. Okay.

▶ 18:47 Yeah, that is, that is true. But we haven't seen, you know, it hasn't made a big impact to the average user. Obviously the, um, the summertime usage for some folks is way out of whack with the rest of the year because they water their loan lawns. But, um, 1800 is our overall average. Thank you. And I also have the breakdown if you're interested in, um, water versus sewer. So I actually misspoke the water rate change is, uh, 2.22, actually it's 2.25% and the sewer rate change is 4% even. Okay. Count. Uh, are you all set councilor repay or any Further? I'm all set. I'm sorry. Okay. That's okay. Um, councilor Williams, I I wanted to ask you about the water relief programs because I saw in my email about question Counselor Stewart had about these programs and I wanted

▶ 19:45 Ryan Williams: to ask how or if they're coordinated. But first I wanted to ask if, you know, off the top of your head what the low income threshold is for low income, uh, rate program, which you might not. And it's maybe an unfair question. Yeah. I don't have it off the top of my head, but I have a feeling Jim's gonna find it in about 30 seconds. Okay. Okay. Um, it's right here. Yeah. So, um, low income appears to be gross income of 35,000 or less for single and 40,000 or less if married. Um, That's pretty low. And then, um, senior discount, um, you have to be 65 years of age and use less than 6,250 cubic feet of water per year. Right. So we're talking about the water, sewer and trash discount abatement form website. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Cool.

▶ 20:35 Ryan Williams: Very good. Um, thank you very much. Cause I actually had a resident reach out about that last week. Okay. And now I know exactly what to tell them. Um, the Boston ABCD Water Bill Relief program that I assume was spoken about in council, um, I wasn't here last week. It's like a, it's like a program where you can get, um, you can apply for money to help pay your bill. And I'm just curious as to whether these requests are going through the same person or being crosschecked. Uh, so the, the city did receive a, a chunk of money that was, um, it was all coordinated through Catherine Armada. Yeah. Um, our treasurer collector. So I think she was coordinating that program, working with Lisa Patterson to identify which accounts to apply the money to.

▶ 21:23 Ryan Williams: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's great. It's actually great to have multiple programs because a lot of times when you're dealing with these abatement programs, people will qualify for one and it's very little and they need more help and, you know, and so sometimes if there's an extra waste of cash, it's great to hear that we have multiple programs. So that's it. That's what I wanted to know. Thank you. Thank You President Greg. Thank you Madam Chair. Thank you for being here tonight. I just wanted to follow up with more questions on the, specifically the senior, um, abatement. So you're saying that our average user is 1800 cubic feet per quarter? Yes. Which works out to about 7,200 cubic feet per year.

▶ 22:01 But the senior discount is only for anyone who uses, um, 6,250 cubic feet, which is a pretty, that's like well below the average user. So how did we get to that number? I believe that's calculated based on 65 gallons per capita per day, which is the d e p threshold of what they like to see. Um, people in general stay under that's considered like wise water usage, um, Per household or per person? Per person. So I think that's how we calculated it. I don't know if we, I don't recall if we used an average, um, household size or if we used two people. Um, but I'm fairly sure the number originates from that. So let's see. Yeah, that comes up to 63 43. So, um, if I did the math right with the conversion from gallons to cubic feet,

▶ 23:02 Jen Grigoraitis: so I think that's how we derive that number. Okay. So I'm not gonna able to convert gallons to cubic feet in my head. So it's, you're seven, 7.4 65 gallons per person per day equals 63 Equals 63 43. So, so that's just one person for two people, for two people. I just did it For two people. And do we ever, I mean the reality is we have seniors who have mul, you know, multiple generations living in the home that they own. Do we ever have any application process or, um, anything, you know, to consider if you can, if you're between 6,250 and 7,200 still being able to qualify for the discount? Um, we haven't, to my knowledge, done that. Although I do think Lisa is reasonable with people. If someone's had the discount every year and then they have 6,400 gallons the

▶ 23:48 following year, I don't think she throws them out of the program that first year. Um, if there's an upward trend where they're using more and more water, she certainly would take them out of the program. But, um, you know, she makes a reasonable judgment with each application. Um, so, you know, I'm not sure exactly how strict we are. We do not have a formal program for people who are in that, uh, 62, 50 to 7,000 Category. Okay. So it's sort of, it's at her kind of discretion and she's very helpful. I'm not in any way trying to imply she isn't just, but the, you know, there's kind of a gap there between typical usage per household and then what we're allowing for a discount for seniors. Yeah. And she really has rarely had complaints though from people who, you know,

▶ 24:29 Jen Grigoraitis: thought they should qualify and don't. I think a lot of, a lot of people, the, the real difference is outdoor watering. So if you're an elderly couple who doesn't water, you're gonna probably meet the discount. If you are an elderly couple who has a huge lush lawn that you're watering every day, you're not gonna meet it. And Or if you're an elderly couple with, you know, three grandkids living at home, you may not make the discount either. I just think it could be an opportunity. And I, I saw Stacy nodding in the background maybe to think about if there's some more kind of, um, you know, consistent parameters we could put in place for that. However few people do or don't fall into that kind of in between area.

▶ 25:08 Yeah. We have also tried to open it up. We have a condo discount too. That was one of the complaints we used to get frequently. And I think ever since we instituted that the complaints have really gone down of people who feel they should qualify and don't. Thank you. Thank you Madam Chair, Councilor Stewart. Thank you Madam Chair. I'll make a motion to recommend, uh, this order for the full council. Second Motion to recommend, uh, order 2023 dash 97 made by Councilor Stewart, seconded by Councilor Ella on discussion Councilor Stewart. One clarification is this 2023 dash 97 or 2023 dash 98? Cuz we're talking water and 2020 threes dash 97 is sewer. Uh, It's, we, we are, this is voting on sewer, but it is com The, um,

▶ 25:59 Leila Migliorelli: director poi ess combined the memo to discuss both. So not unlike other conversations we've had, I think we're discussing both in one, but the vote will be on sewer and then we'll take a second vote on water. Okay. Thank you. Um, so this motion's on discussion. I actually just have a question just to clarify the, um, it just simply for the public, what is the, what is the rationale and difference between the percentage increase for water and sewer? Like, what are the factors that go into why those two are different? So they're completely separate enterprise funds and our rate model, um, has completely separate calculations for water and for sewer. So we input the operating budget, the indirect costs, the debt model, um,

▶ 26:39 for all of our borrowing and, um, then any offsets from the discounts from various things. And then the model calculates, um, how much revenue we need and then what our customer base is and what what the usage is projected to be and pops out a rate. So the operating budget, the debt, the indirect costs, they're all different for water versus sewer. So each year the, the increase is different from one account to the other. Okay. Thank you. Seeing no further questions. Mr. Clerk, Vice Chair Jamal Dean? Yes. Councilor Sunnel? Yes. Councilor Eccles? Yes. Councilor Gepe? Yes. Councilor Stewart? Yes. Councilor Chetty? Yes. Councilor Williams? Yes. President Vardas? Yes. And Chair Melli? Yes. That's nine. Yes.

▶ 27:32 Leila Migliorelli: Unanimous. This order will be brought to the full counsel, um, this evening. As we note, some of these orders are already on our agenda for tonight, so we would be able to vote this through if the council wishes to. So thank you for being here. Okay. And now we will take a vote on order. 2023 dash 98. Motion to recommend. Second Counsel. Motion recommend made by Councillor Eccles, seconded by Councillor ecs. Anyone on discussion? See none. Mr. Clerk, Vice Chair Jamal Dean? Yes. Councilor Sin? Yes. Councilor Eccles? Yes. Councilor Gpe? Yes. Councilor Stewart? Yes. Councilor Chetty? Yes. Councilor Williams? Yes. President Greg? Yes. And Chair Elli? Yes. That's nine. Yes. Will be brought to the full counsel tonight. And I will, um,

▶ 32:24 Paul Brodeur: electric trash truck and charging infrastructure. Tonight we have, um, Ms. Pro Ellis, Mr. Troop and Mayor Broder here with us to talk on this order. Get all that out here. Uh, I'm gonna, Uh, speak, speak briefly and then, uh, turn it over to the experts. Um, as you know, this order has been before you for, for a bit of time, and it is a product of two things. It is a product of the unfortunate need for a new trash truck. Um, we have sometimes put in a position to buy things that aren't so glamorous, like pumper trucks or whatever the case may be. Some stuff's better, some stuff, salt shed, whatever the case may be. Um, this is one of those cases folks where the need is there. So the question becomes, um, why this vehicle?

▶ 33:17 Paul Brodeur: Why electric and why I suppose at this time, um, you know, one of my guiding principles here is try not to ever leave money on the table. And as you all know, some of the, some of the tab we will incur for purchasing the truck and the necessary infrastructure, um, will be offset by, uh, a federal grant. There is a time limit on that federal grant. Um, and so we do have some time pressure before us. Not instant for sure, not instant pressure. Uh, but I wanna make sure folks understand we've been referring to it as the trash truck and that to a certain extent, um, is not accurate. It is trash truck plus. And the reason why I say that is because, um, Melrose has set forth, uh, net 0, 20 50, uh,

▶ 34:05 Paul Brodeur: goals. And we, we've done a lot of the low hanging fruit and now things are gonna get a little bit harder. This is a case where I don't think it's gonna be super hard because we have the opportunity to purchase the truck, but also to purchase essentially state-of-the-art currently, um, charging infrastructure and what that means now that we have an electric first that was not electric. Different different infrastructure problem there. Now that we have, uh, an electric first EV policy, and I wanna be clear, what that means is we evaluate EVs to see if it's a realistic purchase for us as we try to fulfill our net zero goals. Well, uh, in this case, you know, kind the bonus, if you will, is that charging infrastructure will allow us to add

▶ 34:54 Paul Brodeur: additional electric vehicles at the city yard as the replacement cycle goes without incurring that extra expense using, using a federal subsidy. So the value isn't just in the truck itself, it's the ability to electrify the fleet. Um, you do have a memo that I think, unfortunately you only received yesterday. It doesn't have a lot of new information. It does however, suggest if, um, you do not see fit to allocate those funds this evening, uh, which I hope have made clear. I hope you do. Um, then another option to preserve that opportunity would be to, uh, for one of you to make an amendment to move those funds to capital stabilization where they could then be reallocated, um, to make the vehicle purchase. Um,

▶ 35:50 Paul Brodeur: if you still are not satisfied today with the level of information, uh, you have about the need and the program and the infrastructure bonus, if you will, uh, with that, I don't know if you all have anything to add or if we're just gonna, um, or if you're just gonna take questions about the more technical aspects. Yeah, I think, um, you know, the, the only new information we have is that we did explore the opportunity to purchase a Mac and, um, Mac has told us that they are not currently providing quotes for a Class seven vehicle, which is what we were specifying. They, the only quote they could provide was for Class eight vehicle. And I know Cambridge has ordered, um, class eight refuse trucks from Mac at a cost of about $704,000.

▶ 36:35 That was their quote, uh, per, per vehicle. And so that is pretty far outside of our range. Um, you know, we thought should we shift to replacing the larger truck right now and, and delay on the smaller truck, but that's just not, um, something that we find feasible at that price tag. It's fair That that's not an option under because of the grant timing? No, well at this time it's not an option. They said they could probably provide us a quote by the end of the year, but they also couldn't promise any particular timeframe. They didn't wanna lock in any, any promises for that. So they are, they have a Class seven vehicle in the works refuse vehicle, but, um, just weren't able to provide hard numbers on it right now.

▶ 37:21 Jen Grigoraitis: All right. Questions President Greg and Councilor Sonnel. Thank you Madam Chair. Um, thank you all for being here tonight. I first just wanted to make a request of the clerk if we could add the memo from that we received yesterday into the packet. I'm not sure it was in IQ M two. Um, and then just to follow up, because my understanding is that, you know, there is a grant for part of the funding and that we have an extension on the grant until September of 2024. So can you just confirm what exactly that means in terms of, um, you know, what this body is considering and, and, um, whether or not there's money allocated, additional money allocated tonight? Does that Grants grant still remain an option for us?

▶ 38:00 Sure. So the grant that we've received is for $268,000. We have now signed the grant paperwork based on your affirmative vote for the grant at the prior meeting. Um, so we have, we've kind of locked in that, um, that the grant will stay available to us and then we've requested an extension. And the extension we got is through September, 2024. However, that extension is supposed to be the date when we have the new truck and have decommissioned the old truck, which, you know, even if we ordered a truck extremely soon, that timeframe is still tight. I would say, you know, if within the next six months we have a truck on order and we can show that, I would imagine applying for another extension would be feasible.

▶ 38:50 Jen Grigoraitis: But I don't think that the grant, um, the d e p folks who are managing the grant would be amenable to, you know, I don't think if we get around to next September, 2024 and we still haven't purchased anything and we ask if we can just keep extending, they, I don't think they'll continue to extend the grant. Okay. But there isn't like a definitive conversation we've had with them about, um, you know, if there isn't, if this doesn't pass tonight, I'm not saying it will or it won't, but it seems like the options are that it would either be put in capital stabilization for some undetermined amount of time until eight people vote to take it out, or would be possibly reconsidered by a new administration in a new council as

▶ 39:30 free cash in February or March of next year. So would that, I guess are, are either, what is the timeline for those two options? Or is the latter one not a, not viable under the grant? If it, the latter one I would say would be a little tight, but certainly if there wasn't another opportunity for us to request the funds until then, we would still take that opportunity. Um, but my hope is that if the funds can't be allocated tonight, if they are put into capital stabilization, uh, we would come back when we have an exact vehicle that we wanna purchase. Um, we would use the extra time to finalize our discussions with the vendors we've been working with, identify exactly what vehicle we wanna purchase,

▶ 40:11 Christopher Cinella: get a final quote, and then come back with an exact number. And I'm hoping that that will also, um, include some value engineering in terms of if we, um, could come back with a lower number if it's not the full. Um, 4 81 I believe was our number 4 81 6. Um, we'd love to come back with a slightly lower number, um, if we can't get approval tonight. Okay. Thank you. Thank you Madam Chair, councilor Ella, thank you. Thank you, uh, for being here. Forgive me if this question's come up in the last meeting or any other meetings, but, so we have the, um, negotiations starting or started for the trash contract for the city. Have discussions come up with having them take over the municipal stuff because

▶ 40:57 they drive right by it. So, So it's, it's not that simple. So, um, the reality is that none of the three companies we're working with want to quote the city on manual trash pickup. So residential pickup is heading in an automated direction, trash and recycling regardless of, of anything else that's gonna head towards automated. Our, our municipal barrels can never be automated toters, they need to be something that is fixed in place that's not gonna blow over or get moved or whatnot. They, you know, our municipal barrels are just a different animal and they require manual pickup. So we have asked the companies to provide quotes for that manual pickup. I know one of the quotes was 68,000 a year. Um,

▶ 41:43 They, they've quite frankly, the prices that they have submitted do not put the city in a good situation to entertain. Uh, further, it's far more economical for us to maintain public barrels and, uh, yard waste pickup. Even if we switched out to the automated four, those lot those, so We can't use though, if you, if you picture park barrels right, they're, they're not all right on the edge of the road. They're within the parks. They're, you know, at El Pond, they're at the Knoll, they're all over the place. So, um, there's not really a feasible situation where, where an automated truck is gonna be able to come and pick up that barrel from the same spot every week. Um, so we don't envision, and,

▶ 42:28 and the companies have said as much too, none of us envision anything but manual pickup for these. And so the cost is significant because they have to have a separate truck and a separate crew to do that manual pickup. Um, so there's really not an economical way for them to do it. And at a cost of 60 some thousand per year, you know, within a few years we pay for the amount that we'd be putting toward the truck. And what do you think the life is of what we have right now? I mean, we, the engine was rebuilt Yeah. Two years Ago. Uh, do you remember when it was rebuilt in the time that we've both been? Yeah, I think in the, uh, at the last council meeting, we, we pretty much estimated that there's been about 30 to $40,000 just in

▶ 43:11 Mark Garipay: repairs alone. And these are, uh, bandaid approaches just to try to get us through to the point that, uh, we can continue to deliver the services. I think the real overwhelming message that we wanna convey tonight is that both trucks are in need of replacement and this is a viable option, uh, just to allow us to continue to maintain the same level of services. Okay. Thank you Councilor Repe. Thank you Madam Chair. Um, I really not, don't wanna rehash all my concerns about the electric vehicle. Um, class seven vehicles. There's just not a lot of history. Um, and so I look at this as two things. You want the infrastructure Yep. And you need the truck, right? So I think we need to take a hard look at looking at a regular diesel vehicle we

▶ 44:06 Mark Garipay: have. Okay. Um, how do we fund our vehicles right now? Free cash. Free cash. Okay. Um, and we know that we're gonna be extremely tight on free cash Yes. Next year, but then probably for the next foreseeable future. Um, what the value of the grant? Um, I'm just talking about free cash right now. Thank you. Yeah, well, you, you Pay for, you asked about paying for it and the grant would help pay for it. So it's not, in this case, it's not just free cash. Okay. Um, I, I, I appreciate the shift, but of, of if this doesn't go through the, to move this to capital stabilization, but what if it goes to, uh, president Grigoraitis? Um, question if it goes into free cash and it comes out next year, we can still use it in February to if,

▶ 44:58 if we're doing better financially as a community. I mean, we have promised free cash for, for the schools and we just found out again that we're another could be another million dollars in the whole. So I think, think February is tight for the grant, I think to, to expect them to hold it if we didn't even come before you until February didn't get approval, say until March. Mm-hmm. And then we're ordering a vehicle in March or April that's so far off from their grant timeline of having a vehicle in, in service by September. That I just think it's a hard sell with keeping that grant money viable In terms of the, yeah, any, any free cash order that is rejected, as you all know, means that money goes back into the free cash pool for next year. It's not as,

▶ 45:40 Paul Brodeur: as CFO Delarosa said, it's not a one for one, uh, trade off, but, so you will have the money, but you will also continue to have the need. And again, that is a judgment call you all will make. Just like you make a, a judgment call on any of our, you know, police cruisers, pumper trucks, salt sheds, all those things are, are judgment calls. And you'll do with it what you'll, but the need will continue to exist. And on a related note, with regard to the need, um, we've, we've just completed a fleet assessment with a consultant and our average fleet age in D P W, I wanna say it was 12 point something years for our truck specifically, if you remember. Yeah. With the replacement at about 18 years.

▶ 46:31 So, um, we've identified that we need, at a minimum 500,000 per year to, to bring our fleet up to a, a reasonable level. We've ordered, as you know, because you all have approved these purchases, we've ordered recently a diesel roll-off truck. We got three new dump trucks that are also used for plowing. And we ordered two pickups, one of which was a Ford Lightning. So we, you know, in our recent purchases, we have determined that to meet our needs, we need the diesel, uh, trucks, not the EV equivalents in a lot of cases because of snow plowing or, or other needs. The refuse truck is the one truck that the National Grid program identified as being the most viable for an electric of the larger vehicles.

▶ 47:19 Mark Garipay: And so we estimate we need half a million per year. And this year this was our request for vehicle purchases. So we didn't submit to the council any other, or, or to Patrick any other free cash request. So if we don't get anything through this either now or later through capital stabilization, that means we've missed an entire year of vehicle purchases to try to keep up to our minimum level of replacements. Uh, um, in the memo we received yesterday, it, um, it says it would be shortsighted to allow this opportunity, uh, to more or less go by, which I, I think it, it's shortsighted for us if we don't take, do a deep dive with the pressure and the stress on the amount of free cash for next year. Um, so I, I disagree with the mayor's, uh,

▶ 48:13 Paul Brodeur: sa um, position on that. I think it would be shortsighted for everyone around this council not to be, not to be thinking about that for next year. Um, whoever, whoever's gonna be here, you know, we gotta think, think for the future we're gonna have potentially tough decisions to make next year. So my vote has not changed and I will not be supporting, uh, an amendment or this, this order. I, I absolutely agree with that idea of prudence. And, um, again, I guess, or just there is, um, both of the folks to my left have given you, um, I think all the information about the vehicle and the situation and the funding and the, um, capital reinvestment cycle, um, that we're following. So we can certainly have different views about what is shortsighted my appear as

▶ 49:04 Paul Brodeur: what that statement meant. My reflection is again, continuing to not take opportunities to do the necessary but, um, not too exciting things in like the salt sheds and the pumper trucks and the roofs and things like that is just kicking the can down the road. But again, it's in your, it's in your capable hands. So thank you again for your consideration And I appreciate all your work into it. I just, I just can't support, support this order as says thank you Councilor Carm Jady. Thank you Madam Chair. Um, Mr. Thorpe, you may have already asked, answered my question, but I just wanna like ask it again just to make sure I'm understanding. Sort of, is this a nice to purchase or a need to purchase in

▶ 49:52 Manjula Karamcheti: terms of this vehicle? Am I hearing correctly that we need to replace our municipal truck regardless? Yeah, I, I can emphatically say that this is a need to replacement. I watch our guys every day and the, and the repairs that go into that truck. I, I personally don't think that we can afford that safety risk to put them in a vehicle of this condition year after year without a replacement. Okay. So we need a truck. And then do you any of you at the table in terms of diesel versus electric, like the price differential? Yes. So we got quotes for an equivalent truck. Um, we got a quote for a diesel truck that was, I believe it was 2 98. Yes, 2 98. Um, our contribution to the, um, To the electric truck would be two 70.

▶ 50:48 So $28,000 less for us to get the electric truck because of the grant component. The grant would be covering 221,400 of the EV purchase. So in the end we end up with a truck, we end up spending less money than we would on the diesel and we end up with a substantial contribution to the necessary charging infrastructure. Um, I'm not sure if everybody here was at the last meeting when we discussed this, but the issue with the charging infrastructure is that we don't have an electrical service that has the capacity to charge any of our electric vehicles. So right now we have two electric sedans and we alternate plugging them into one outlet, um, on the outside of the building. So what this will get us,

▶ 51:31 Manjula Karamcheti: the 481,600 that we're requesting will get the truck, including our match component matched with the grant and then it will also get us a brand new electrical service, a new transformer, and then the level three fast charger, um, to plug the trash truck into in a, in a configuration where we can add other ports in the future. Okay. So truck to truck diesel are electric given that we have this grant, the cost differential, we're actually saving a couple bucks with the electric, correct? If I understand correctly? Yes. Okay. But then, and this is a truck we need, um, so then the other piece I'm just trying to understand cuz the grant covers 45% of the electric vehicle and the grant amount that we get is

▶ 52:26 Manjula Karamcheti: 268,000, but the request is for 481,000, which is way more than 55% of the truck. So that's the additional for the infrastructure of the charging. Correct. So that's why it's almost double what the truck Costs. Yeah, because it's a new service from the street, a new transformer and then the charging ports. And just in terms of it being in the D P W city yard, like is that sort of charging station only for municipal trucks and it'll be for D P W not for residents or anything like that? Yes. To be able to go to the city yard and use as well? It has to be because, you know, we would need to be sure that we could tr plug our trucks in there every night. Um, unfortunately a lot of the grants that are out right now for the charging

▶ 53:11 Paul Brodeur: infrastructure are only for public charging infrastructure. And so this is a rare opportunity for us to get some money toward a dedicated private, you know, city only. It's weirdly akin to, um, some years ago before, I think before all of our time, um, we used to run on credit cards for a lot of fueling and now there is essentially, you guys make sure I get the term, there's basically a gas station at the city yard Yes. That um, services municipal vehicles and kind of streamlines things all in one place. Um, it'd be akin to that I suppose. Okay. Uh, thank you for answering all those questions. I think just similarly, the electric vehicle, the charging stations, it all seems like great stuff to do.

▶ 53:59 Manjula Karamcheti: It does sound like we need it, but I think as a body I continue to just be concerned about free cash as a whole and our now and our future and just how do we make sure that our schools have enough funding for using free cash funding for something that seems really cool and awesome and cutting edge and like forward in terms of thinking about the environment and climate and that kind of thing. And just sort of just struggling with that a little bit in terms of priorities. But I appreciate all the work that has gone into it. I thank you for providing the clarity of needing versus like a nice two thing. It's really helpful. Thank you so much. You're Welcome. Councilor Stewart. Thank you Madam Chair. Thank you all for being here for today for nice hearing.

▶ 54:54 Robb Stewart: Um, Here's my concerns, sir. We're you, you, you sell a rosy picture, but it's an unproven technology. If it has a half-life of seven to 10 years on that battery, then what do we do? You know, we have a truck that gets ha has to get charged every four to six hours. We don't know that because it's unproven. Um, I just, I feel as though we're trying to make strategic funding decisions at a moment of crisis based on grants and I don't think that's the right thing to do in terms of making strategic decisions. When we are at a point where we're facing a three and a half million deficit on the school side that we're gonna be tapping on into our free cash to rectify that situation. This problem is not going to last for one year and go away.

▶ 55:45 Robb Stewart: It's gonna be a continual problem. I feel like this is a bit of, um, a nice to have as consulate cochetti put it. Um, and I, I feel like when you talk about, you know, it's either we have terrible trucks that don't work or we have to go down this road or that, that puts us a little bit in a corner where we do have an alternative buy, just go buy a diesel truck, which is less money. So I can't support this at this point. It just, to me it doesn't make sense. Thank you Madam Chair. I would just say if you not to be a smart al about it, but the interesting thing about diesel is it's been, it's been around for an awful long time and we know the pluses and the significant minuses of it, or we really wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Right. This,

▶ 56:34 Jack Eccles: we would continue to go on with the, with the existing tech. Appreciate that mayor. Yep. Thank you Madam Chair. Councilor Eccles. Thank you Madam Chair. Um, many of my questions have been asked. One, one question I have is, um, where does the charging infrastructure kind of land on the list of priorities? Let's say we went with a diesel truck right now, where is the, where does that lie for urgency? You know, current state? So As soon as the Ford Lightning arrives, we now have three trucks that have nowhere, three vehicles at D P W that have nowhere to charge. Um, the, the situation that we have right now where we take the plug from one sedan and try to switch it back and forth from the outlet on the outside of the building.

▶ 57:17 And then it also faults sometimes and you have to unplug it and plug the outlet, plug it back into the outlet. Um, that is somewhat sustainable for the two sedans because if I go out to drive my electric vehicle to go to a job site or something and it's not available, I just jump in my personal car and take that instead. It happens to me probably once a month where the charging infrastructure we have fails and I can't drive the electric car. Um, but as soon as the Ford Lightning arrives, that's supposed to be our operations general foreman's truck. And you know, for him to be in that same situation, he's not gonna jump in his own truck to, to go to job sites every day. So we need reliable charging infrastructure and we have a truck that's probably

▶ 58:06 scheduled, it's being built right now, so it's probably scheduled to be here, uh, within the next six months. And so we really need a solution and without a new electrical service, we don't have that solution. So this, the, the real win here is that this allows us to get a whole new electrical service and transformer and then solves that issue as well as allowing us to get the electric trash truck. Got it. Sounds like we probably need, regardless of what happens tonight, there probably needs to be an operational solution for that. Yes. Arrival anyway. Yes. Thanks, Vice chair, Jamal Dean, Thank you. Um, thank you for your patience and answering all our questions. Mr. Tu you mentioned that there is safety concern on your team members.

▶ 58:58 Can you explain? Sure. So, uh, over the last two and a half to three years, uh, there has been a floor welled into the truck. Uh, the driver would've, uh, fallen through the bomb. So they've welded the floor, they've had hydraulic lines that have been replaced, and that's the crusher. Once the, the trash or the debris gets into the hopper of the truck to pull the truck up, uh, the, the debris up into the, the hopper itself. Uh, so without that, there's nothing controlling that, uh, mechanical arm. Uh, and then other, uh, just basic engine repairs, uh, a full rebuild of the engine brake lines, just critical critical maintenance or routine maintenance that gets done on a truck. And as, uh, Elena explains to you, uh,

▶ 59:47 Maya Jamaleddine: we're looking at about 18 years, uh, for about our average replacement and the municipal industry average is about half of that. So, Yeah, so I hear you. I'm, I'm just concerned about the safety issue. So you mentioned that maintenance, um, but what is the safety risk that our employees are taking? Yeah, so it's the real safety risk that they, uh, face every day is an aging vehicle that is constantly breaking down. So now that truck comes outta service, we repair it to the point that it's safe for them to drive. But if anything, were ever to fail. So this is very important because this is not safe issue. That's concern of not having the truck, you know, functioning but not personal, like employee human safety. I think

▶ 1:00:44 Any, any vehicle that reaches this age presents safety concerns. We saw the exact same thing with the, um, street sweeper when we were here a couple years ago, advocating for a new street sweeper where the brakes let go and the street sweeper went backwards down Ferdinand Street and almost, and they hit somebody's wall in their driveway and managed to maneuver in such a way that you didn't hit anybody. But when you, when you're driving vehicles that are 20 plus years old as you would be in your own car, there are just, you know, more opportunities for something to break down and there to be some failure that presents a safety risk. So respectfully, what what did it for me was hearing that there was a big hole in the floor and

▶ 1:01:25 that you had to, well, I mean that's Flintstone's error technology, right? When you put your feet down when you're doing those kind of repairs as opposed to Right. That's not normal maintenance. Correct. I would assume that it's a little bit of a different, So how many, uh, vehicle do we have over the lifetime limit that we like the average? Yeah, specifically, uh, I'm gonna respectfully wait until I see the final, uh, report from, uh, our consultant and that deliverable is, is imminent. Um, but, and we've done a good job of replacing the aging fleet, uh, with, with the, you know, the numbers that Elena previously just explained to you. Um, but with an average age at 11 or 12 years old, there are some vehicles,

▶ 1:02:16 Maya Jamaleddine: I can think of four specifically, that are, uh, late 1990s, early two thousands. So, uh, and these are trucks that we're counting on delivering services every day. Okay. So if we are gonna call it safety issue, it's not only on this specific truck, it's gonna be more than one. Correct. Uh, and for me personally, I wanted to mention that a name that I'm fully in support of replacing those, uh, and the need of having, uh, you know, sustainable and, um, more efficient, uh, vehicles with the crisis that we are facing. Um, I need to prioritize and I feel our next generation and the students are probably now as, as a parent, I feel if I need to change my car, even if it was over the time, um, or put my kids in school, I have to prioritize at that time.

▶ 1:03:22 But I am fully in support of and see the need and I'm sorry that your department is going through this. Um, uh, this is where we are in this situation. Thank you. Thank You. I think the benefit of the, the option to put the money into capital stabilization is that it doesn't eliminate the opportunity for us to come back with better information with maybe a lower cost. Maybe we find more rebate and grant opportunities and we can come back with a better number, um, by letting it go back into free cash for next year. I feel like it just eliminates all possibilities. And the $268,000 of outside money basically goes away. Um, so I hear all the concerns about the present situation, but would strongly encourage consideration of putting the money in capital

▶ 1:04:15 stabilization because, you know, several months from now, if we come back with a proposal that's less money, that's maybe more palatable, then it's still an option. Mm-hmm. Whereas, um, and, and if instead the council decides you'd rather have that capital stabilization go toward a need at the schools, that can happen as well. But not putting it into capital stabilization really eliminates the possibility for us to take advantage of the grant. Thank you. Councilor Williams. Um, are these funds associated with this grant in competition with funds that could be earmarked for public schools? The, Maybe let me rephrase this. If we don't pass this, does all this money go into the schools Tomorrow? No, it just goes back into free cash.

▶ 1:05:09 Ryan Williams: Okay. It goes back into free cash. Um, and then the council doesn't get to decide where that money goes. Right. Well, next year, in theory you do. We get to decide whether your mayor proposes. Yes. We get to decide whether the mayor's ideas for Free cash Correct. Are valid. Correct. You don't get to pick and choose, or We don't get to pick and choose where the money goes. We just get to say yes or no. Right. Because I would love to, to pick and choose. Maybe it would be a disaster. Right. But I would love to pick and choose, but I can't. Um, and so we're left with this question of, you know, we really need a new trash truck. It's a trash truck that crawls past our downtown area with Parklets and kids

▶ 1:05:47 Ryan Williams: playing and parking their bikes past the Y M C A, past the common with, you know, dozens of different sports leagues playing, um, either at the Common or at the Noll or all these other locations that have, that have, uh, that have trash at the school buildings. Um, and we have to figure out whether it makes sense fiscally to buy an electric trash truck or whether we should just buy another diesel truck. So I want to just help me understand this and help me clarify this cuz I've heard a bunch of different conflicting things around the horseshoe tonight. Which truck is more expensive? Which truck costs the city more to buy out of pocket? The diesel costs the city more to buy out of pocket because of the grant.

▶ 1:06:30 Ryan Williams: Okay. And do you know what you're spending right now on diesel maintenance? So it's, it's a bit hard for us to quantify. I mean, we know we've spent about 30,000 on this truck Yeah. In recent years. But, you know, we don't have an exact figure. So, you know, you just maybe five, 10 grand. I mean, you've gotta do oil changes, filter changes, fuel, you know, you know, hydraulic lines, all this stuff. Right. Um, and then have the, have, has anybody quantified for you or discussed the difference between diesel fuel and electricity in terms of a fuel cost? Um, we did at the last meeting present some numbers that National Grid had that were supposed to be, I don't know, somewhat of an average figure figure,

▶ 1:07:11 but they were, it was for five trucks. Yeah. I still don't feel comfortable quoting any actual numbers on that. I think there's too much uncertainty in, um, you know, our electrical prices and how, and really the big question is how much electricity is it going to take to charge this vehicle? And I don't feel like we know that exact number. Sure. Okay. Um, who's, I'm sorry. Who's building? Who would build the truck if you chose the lowest bidder right now? If we chose the lowest bidder? Well, If you chose your preferred bidder, who would build the truck? So we're, we're still kind of going around on, you know, we looked into the Mac. Yeah. We know that's not an option right now, but could become an option later this year. Um, we had Peterbilt,

▶ 1:07:56 which was the higher price. Mm-hmm. We had three options from crane carrier that were, one was close to the Peterbilt price, roughly the same. And then they went down as much as 40,000 less depending on what, um, hopper on the vehicle. Um, but another discussion we're having right now internally is with the same Peterbilt cab in chassis, but with it a little shorter, we could possibly have this be a Class six vehicle, which is considered medium duty instead of class seven, in which case it could be driven by a non CDL driver. And so, you know, we're still tossing around what is our, our preferred option. But the price we've put in here is for the Peterbilt, um, with the, I believe it was the new way, um, copper,

▶ 1:08:45 Paul Brodeur: which matches the brand we have now. And would the, would the other, so the one, the smaller one is smaller, the Six and would be cheaper. I'm a huge fan of small trucks by the way. Small. Yeah. So the question is if it could still, if it could still, uh, pick up the same amount. Okay. The amount of trash that we needed to pick up. Okay. In the smaller hopper, then we are very open to it. And our operations form seems to think that that's something we should now look at. Yeah. It's a good idea. Counsel, Can I ask you a clarifying question? Sure. So there's the, you you talked about essentially the purchase price, the upfront price. Yeah. The fuel price and repair is more of a life of vehicle. Yeah. Cost.

▶ 1:09:22 Ryan Williams: Is that more what you're, what you're wondering about? I'm thinking about kind of daily operation from a cash flow perspective. I am also interested in lifetime costs, but, but I'm thinking in terms of the right now moment that we're discussing this fiscal, you know, issues that we're having. Like, you know, when this thing lands, what pressure does it take off the public Works budget right away. Yeah. Lower cost to buy and lower cost to operate are fair to say, but we don't have exact numbers. Yeah. And, um, Peterbilt, Mac and Crane are these new companies? No, they've been around a long time. All three are companies, um, who have built a lot of trucks for a lot years. They've built a lot of trucks and uh, and they know what they're doing.

▶ 1:09:57 Ryan Williams: And they probably aren't gonna sell New York City and Melrose, a bunch of crap garbage trucks that fail in the first three months and then walk away from the deal. Right. And also, uh, worth noting is that the, the whole um, copper assembly, that's the whole refuse body. Those are the same refuse bodies that are on the diesel trucks. Yeah. So everything that relates to the operation of actually picking up the trash and compacting the trash, that's the same tried and true technology that's been used. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, does anybody, do you know how much air pollution the trash truck tends to produce? I don't know off The a hundred metric tons of carbon dioxide. Not to mention all of the diesel particulate,

▶ 1:10:41 Ryan Williams: which sometimes has sulfur and arsenic and all kinds of other bad stuff. I think about this all the time when I'm sitting at the parklet and a trash truck rolls by or any big truck, I think, you know, this is great, but it sucks that I have to sit here and breathe this smoke in or sit here with my kids and breathe this smoke in because these guys, they have to stop. They gotta go get the thing, they gotta bring it back. It's running the whole time. And then they gotta press the hopper and then it really cranks up and starts pushing out smoke. And that drives me crazy. Yeah. It's a lot of idling. It's a lot of idling. So really I think the operative question for me is, do we make the investment now to upgrade the electric charging infrastructure?

▶ 1:11:14 Ryan Williams: Because the question of whether we purchase a less expensive electric truck that has huge public health benefits is probably more reliable than a diesel truck. Um, and seems to be not just the wave of the future, but something that's happening right now in major cities with huge capacity and planning departments that make very smart decisions. Um, it's a no-brainer for me to support an electric trash truck. So the question is, do I think it's worth it in this moment in the city's budget to drop another 250 K on putting in electric charging infrastructure so that we can continue to move forward on our fleet, um, fication strategy? And to me the answer is yes. So I support this order. I think it makes sense. Um,

▶ 1:11:54 Ryan Williams: I think it's a reasonable argument, um, to say that we have a lot of pressures on us right now, but certainly we've had pressures before. We replaced a plastic carpet at Fred Greenfield cost $600,000. We spend a ton of money on Memorial Hall and maybe none of us will ever live to see it completed. I hope we do. Um, so I think that, uh, for me this is a yes. I appreciate you guys thinking Probably about a month, so, Okay, good. Hopefully, well, I hope so. I hope so. Um, it's an Opportune time to plug the gala coming up in October. Tickets are available, So there you go. Thank you. Thank you. So yeah. Yeah, I support this and I appreciate that this city is thinking about ways to improve public health, um, to lead on climate change, um,

▶ 1:12:31 Mark Garipay: and to do so in a way that's fiscally responsible with, with grants. And yeah, I appreciate it also. Thank you very much. Um, since we've gone all the way around, councilor Repe, Uh, thank you. Um, just going back to the lower cost, I question the, uh, the lower cost to maintain the vehicle. We don't know even what the reliability is. Um, the technology hasn't been out there on these type of vehicles, so I do, I do question that the low, it's a lower cost to operate it. Um, a diesel vehicle, let's face it, electric trucks are here, they're gonna be closed type of vehicles in the next 6, 7, 8 years are probably gonna be everywhere, but I don't think everyone's buying into 'em just yet. In the transportation world, which I've spent 30 years in so far, um,

▶ 1:13:21 Mark Garipay: I, I think we are ca uh, we, we have the manpower, we have the, uh, expertise within our, uh, mechanics to, to maintain a diesel vehicle. Um, we still have 550,000 with the money we, uh, we're gonna approve that's going into capital stabilization. So we got a healthy capital stabilization fund right now. Um, and then just a quick, uh, two, two other quick questions. The used market has been coming down and you had mentioned that no one wants to labor's an issue. They all want to go automated all the communities. So if, if all the big companies want to go automated is their availability of good use equipment. I understand JRM uses the big, the big one, the big trucks. But is there anything out there that if this vehicle is that unsafe

▶ 1:14:16 Mark Garipay: that we can find as a bandaid approach to get us through and then look at a, at a electric vehicle, 4, 5, 6, 7 years down the road when the technology's proven? Um, if, if I think Mr. Troop, but if I was looking at Mr. Troop, if you could just answer that cuz he's, he's been doing the research on that. Um, but I would, I would think there's gonna be some availability used. Truck market has totally gone come down considerably in the last six months. Well, so as An all time spike, I'll turn it over to Jim as a general proposition, one of the attractions to electric transportation technology in general, and that it's certainly marketed in the, uh, consumer market is the much lower maintenance costs.

▶ 1:15:02 Paul Brodeur: You don't have to change the oil, you don't have to do a lot of the fluids or any of those kind of things. Your pistons don't wear out. Um, and that is, that is what feeds into the argument of lower, uh, lower maintenance costs over time, lower lifetime costs of vehicle. I'm not a fan as, you know, not a fan of the bad data approach, but I think Jim can probably shed some light on some of the other questions. Yeah. My, my only hesitancy in the used market in this type of environment or or trash vehicle is what it's been used for up until the point that they're selling it to a municipality. And uh, when I look at what the companies that are coming in and providing bids to us, they're looking at either a, retrofitting their existing fleet or retiring it.

▶ 1:15:47 Mark Garipay: Nobody has made any indications that they are willing to sell it. Thus I'd probably be a little hesitant to buy something that they would use. I'm not saying that that's not a viable option, but from what I've heard, I think I would be reluctant in recommending something like that To gonna be interesting to see how they retrofit 'em. Cause typically those are the cab over style. Yeah, the, the retrofit for the most part, I believe Mark, uh, on the, on the back side. Okay. Sorry counselor. Thank you. Um, um, and then one other thing that just spurred another question. You said we have another vehicle coming in that we don't know how we're going to charge it. Well, we're going to plug it into an outlet just like we are with our other,

▶ 1:16:27 Manjula Karamcheti: What was the plan when we purchased these To plug it into an outlet until we could get charging infrastructure. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. We also have the, um, pole mounted charger that's right up the street that we could use. What class is that? Two, I think, Um, counselor Carm Shady. Um, I think Counselor GPE sort of was alluding to the piece of this puzzle that I was trying to extra extrapolate a little bit. And it really was the how many electric vehicles do we have already? And I think what I had heard you say, and it sounds like Counselor Garey heard the whole thing is sort of this chicken and an egg issue we find ourselves in where we purchased or got the vehicles but didn't have a plan for how we would

▶ 1:17:22 charge them. And so now we're looking to upgrade to be able to sustain and grow. And I'm just wondering about that kind of a Plan. So the two vehicles, the sedans that I was referencing, those were purchased before I started working here, which is 2015. So I believe those were 2014 purchases. And they were purchased with the intent that they would be parked in the city hall parking lot and the new charging stations at the time, they're not new anymore. In the city hall parking lot were the locations for those vehicles at the time. We used to leave when I started in 2015, I used to drive the other one, not the one I drive now. And I used to have to plug it in all the time because if it sat for too long

▶ 1:18:07 uncharged, the accessory battery would die and then I wouldn't be able to, you just can't start the car. Um, the, the engine battery has plenty of charge, but the accessory battery dies. So I was having to leave my car plugged in all the time, or not all the time, but frequently in the city hall lot. And then the public started buying more and more electric cars and the demand for that charging station really went up. And then we also started charging, uh, it used to be free, now we charge for it and make a little money off of it. Um, but we were getting a lot of complaints when the city car was sitting there for too long. And so at some point we just decided to move those cars down to the city yard. So they were never intended.

▶ 1:18:49 Paul Brodeur: The two sedans were never intended to be for the city yard. And that's why there's not charging infrastructure. And then also Martha Grover had brought in probably three years ago, she brought in a company to put in a charging station similar to what we have in the city hall lot in front of the D P W. And that's when we learned that we didn't have the electrical capacity in our electrical service to be able to install one of those stations. So that's how we ended up where We are. And it's not so much, oh, sorry. It's not so much that there was, there was no plan. I think, and this has been a thing that's been going on over time is we have the capacity to service the assets we have, we can get better technology so that we can grow for

▶ 1:19:35 Paul Brodeur: sure. But there was no question, no reasonable question at the time that we could handle, um, the new electric pickup. And yeah, the technology changes and improves with the possibility of level three charging. That is kind of a dramatic upgrade. Meaning instead of plugging someone in something in, and this is a little bit beyond my pay grade, to be sure into the, into the one 10, which is what I think, you know, it's like plugging in your, your lamp. Whereas this, you're also gonna get a much quicker charge. So off of one charging station, you can do more vehicles, you can do more overnight vehicles and have a more of a fleet wide perspective. So if we do this, we do have that opportunity to expand strategically. Um,

▶ 1:20:25 Paul Brodeur: I would suggest that we should, I mean, if we're not going to invest in that capacity increase, we should probably start thinking about not looking at electric vehicles because we do at some point do get to a critical mass where we're gonna need the better, more efficient infrastructure. Right. So just to summarize, we need a truck. We have a grant to pay for the truck that makes it cheaper than diesel and we need to expand our infrastructure if we get the truck correct. Okay. Thank you. Okay. I'm President Greg. Thank you Madam Chair. I think some of my questions cause I, as we've added conversations about the, the truck and the how we're charging those things, I feel like this has become,

▶ 1:21:17 Jen Grigoraitis: it's, it's hard for me to disentangle which problem exactly it is we're trying to solve. And I know that because we're Melrose, we have more problems than we have the ability to solve. And I just wanna acknowledge that I don't question the need for us to invest in our infrastructure. I'm also looking at five of your department head colleagues who are also sitting here tonight coming before us with things that I know are also critical to their ability to deliver services. Um, and that we are constantly having to make decisions, you know, from which thing, from the endless buffet of needs we're gonna try to shore up. Um, so I do think electric vehicles are exciting. Um, I own two personally. I understand charging infrastructure. I just, I,

▶ 1:21:57 Jen Grigoraitis: I feel like we're trying to kind of solve multiple problems in what feels like a very convoluted way for me. Like, we bought a truck, we can charge it. This would be a better way to charge it. That truck's not gonna be here for another six months. We bought that truck a year ago. If we buy, if this passes tonight and you can go tomorrow and hit order on an electric trash truck, when does that get here? It depends which one we purchase. One vendor said they could have it to us within a few months because their, um, crane carrier said that they're making these in the hopes of selling them. So they're already in manufacturing. If we did the Peterbilt, I believe they'd be building it custom for us.

▶ 1:22:35 Jen Grigoraitis: And so I would say a year plus. A year plus. Okay. And then if, again, if this passed tonight and you could hit buy on the charging infrastructure, when is that actually usable in the ground? Voltri give us a Yeah, it's the most, for the most part, they've engineered the, that project already. Uh, so they would start getting, uh, working on that immediately. I believe that the deliverable is most, most likely eight months, if I remember correctly. Take Me a second. And to go back to the concerns about the viability of the existing truck, you feel that that truck could be on the road in service for possibly another year to a year and a half while we wait? Uh, it will be anyway. Yeah, we'll just keep that truck in service.

▶ 1:23:26 We'll keep it limping along as long as we can until we have what we consider a good replacement. I mean, with our ev first policy and with the recommendations from National Grid that, that this truck is one that should be replaced with an ev it is difficult for us to say, we're not gonna do that. We're gonna purchase a diesel even if it costs more money. Um, you know, given the grant. So it, I'm not sure within our ev first policy within the parameters of that, how we would buy a diesel truck. So I would say we'd be more likely to keep truck 18 limping along for as long as we can until we can get an EV replacement. Okay. And on and related to the EV first policy, so I know the actual truck is cheaper with the grant,

▶ 1:24:10 but we can't charge the truck without the infrastructure. Correct. It's not just like, can it be faster and more efficient? It's that we literally don't have the capacity to do it. Um, I mean, I don't, is that, How does that factor into policy? It doesn't really take that into, doesn't factor account into that. Okay. It's, you know, if you can economically replace the truck with an EV equivalent, and if it makes sense operationally, which in this case we feel that it does, um, then you're supposed to go with the EV option. Okay. Thank you. Thank you manager. Um, I have some questions if, unless there's somebody who's secondary question. Okay. Um, are there any other grant opportunities for purchasing electric vehicles?

▶ 1:24:55 Like, is this the main one? Are there other opportunities that come up or you see on the horizon? This Is the main one. The Deer grant is the main one for our application, but there are other opportunities for the charging infrastructure. And those are constantly evolving. We talk in here about the potential for some tax credits, um, that may or may not be a reality. National Grid has incentives that, you know, can go up depending on how we, how exactly we structure this. Um, so I think there are more opportunities for incentives and rebates on the charging infrastructure, um, which we would hope to take advantage of with this project to bring the price down. Um, and fewer that we've seen on the truck replacement.

▶ 1:25:46 So there's opportunity for the, so like right now the cost to, uh, the city portion with this grant, the city portion would be 211,000. You could see that going down potentially? Yes. Yeah. And we had gotten into that a little bit in the memo. Yeah. We, we went with the most conservative, we had to be sure that if we had an affirmative vote, we could walk away and fund the project. Right. And so we had to put in the worst case number, which is the two 11, because we know that Dira is paying for 40 46,600 and that National Grid said they have a hundred thousand dollars incentive, but they might have to subtract off what we get from the Deer Grant. So that's why we quoted that as 53,400 for a total savings of a hundred thousand.

▶ 1:26:34 Leila Migliorelli: But National Grid also thought that that might not be the case. We might get the full a hundred thousand from them. Um, and then they mentioned the tax credits as well. So we hope that that number is less than 211,000. But, And is that the, I feel like we've talked a lot about the truck in terms of the charging infrastructure, if you were to go and purchase infrastructure without this grant, so like right now that total cost is three 11, is that, are there other options, other cost options for that type of charging infrastructure? Or would you say that is the, like average or I don't, I don't know if this is a charging infrastructure that's needed for, to support a trash truck or if you, like you,

▶ 1:27:17 you've identified a need for charging infrastructure for other vehicles. Is this the, like top of the line charging infrastructure? So this is level three fast charging, right? We did look at level two charging, but we were advised that the, um, the, you know, for if we're gonna move in this direction for any heavy duty vehicles and vehicles that are in service most of the day, that we should really be looking at the fast charging. Um, we could possibly get away with the level two charging for this trash truck, um, which would bring the cost down a little bit, but then we would've built out the infrastructure for level two. And then if the next purchase requires level three, you know, if we're trying to do something more 24 7 like snow plowing

▶ 1:28:00 or something with electric, you know, we can't get there without swapping out that infrastructure And that charging infrastructure. I know it's, it's for city use. Are there other city vehicles, not just DPW vehicles that would be able to charge? Um, I would imagine we would open it up if, if they ever needed it to the new Ford Lightning that's being purchased by the rec department. Okay. Um, and I'm not aware of any other electric vehicles. The police, police Electric, I was gonna say it's the chief failure there. Yes. So yeah. Um, There's, so the police department would be welcome to charge, but I think they have locations where they can charge. Okay. But they do, they have that quick charging capacity. Sorry to,

▶ 1:28:42 I'm not sure if it's, if it's quick charging or not, but it serves its purpose. We only have one full electric, So. Okay. It's, He's, he always has a Contract. Okay. Um, and then how many years is the trash contract? The trash contract? Yeah. Uh, we're looking at five years. Okay. So the, as you said, I think I, if I did the math right, if you, you said about like 60,000 for, um, manual trash pickup if we wanted to outsource this completely. And then that would pay for itself in about eight years. Just for the city. Just for the city barrels. Okay. That's the price for the municipal barrels. So on the list of items that we, um, listed that we use Truckee 18 for. Mm-hmm. Um, so we do approximately a hundred barrels three times a week. Um,

▶ 1:29:37 Leila Migliorelli: we do the seasonally on Sundays now too. We do metal goods pickup with this truck. We do the school dumpsters and we do the residential neighborhoods that the large trucks, the contractors trucks have trouble accessing. So that 68,000, 67,000 only would handle that first bullet of the hundred, uh, municipal barrels. So what we're looking at is with like, I think you, for this chart was really helpful to see the total cost city portion. If you were to then purchase the diesel truck, it would be 298,000. If you wanted the EV service, it would be 311 thou, like, let's just take the trash truck out of it. So it's 609,000. Um, it sounds like we'll need the EV service at some point in time, but primarily like, are we really like in the hurri?

▶ 1:30:28 Leila Migliorelli: Cause I was also just trying, I pulled up the net zero plan to try to see if there's any information there about other, um, municipal EV vehicles on the horizon. Um, I didn't, I didn't get all the way through it sitting here, but, um, I'm just wondering like if that EV service is not needed until we start to purchase this vehicle or other vehicles. Is that fair? I would say other vehicles most likely would be charged, you know, non D P W vehicles would more likely be charged wherever their resident department is. So if we got, you know, counsel on aging vans, there would have to be charging infrastructure at the coa. If, if, um, the inspection services department switches over to EVs mm-hmm.

▶ 1:31:14 Paul Brodeur: They'd have something here at the city hall lot or they'd plug into the chargers we have. Okay. Um, at the slot, I think Council Chetty put a, like put her finger right on the line. It is a bit of a chicken and an egg thing. Um, I used as an example of the pole mounted charges that we have throughout the city, or to a certain degree, I don't wanna say a leap of faith, but something that we, uh, as a community have really kind of taken pride in. Those are not subscribed to a hundred percent of the time. Part of the purpose of those charging stations, they're simple to use. Charging infrastructure for consumers is to create confidence in the market. Uh, think, all right, I'm gonna be able to charge this thing. I'm not,

▶ 1:31:56 Paul Brodeur: I don't have to worry about that. Um, what they call range envy or what's the Range anxiety? Range Anxiety, thank you. Um, so that's part because we, we can potentially get into a situation where, because the supply streams might not line up perfectly, we're gonna say, all right, we shouldn't buy an electric truck because we don't have the infrastructure to charge it as far as we can tell. And so therefore, maybe we should go, well, we don't really have any trucks to charge, so why would we bother getting this somewhat expensive to start up, if not for the grant infrastructure, if we don't have any trucks to charge. So, you know, at, at some point something's got, something's gotta give. And that's part of what, like the,

▶ 1:32:44 Paul Brodeur: the net 0 20 50 is premised on that. It is not laid out as, you know, we are gonna buy, uh, Ford Lightning three years from now. It's things like, well, we're gonna have an ev first policy, or we are going to consider, um, you know, in different types, heat sinks or, you know, electrification in our building permits or whatever, whatever the case may be, recognizing that it all kinda moves towards that bigger goal. But it's not really designed to be that granular for the most part. Thank you. Um, I'm, as my colleagues have voiced, um, it's difficult vote because I, I own an electric vehicle myself. I feel really strongly in, um, you know, lowering our emissions as a city. I think that it's sort of like the, the big picture I didn't, I don't know that we receive,

▶ 1:33:44 Leila Migliorelli: you know, these are the grants that we're applying for. This is maybe the, I don't know if you knew when you applied for the grant that it would require this much in free cash. I feel like that plan is just, I think someone else mentioned this too, it's like we have these chunks of free cash requests without sort of being able to prioritize 'em. That's sort of the nature of the game. But it is, it does make it hard when we're finding ourselves in a situation where we have these increasing costs on the school side. And not that I understand, I mean, I understand that if we put this money back into free cash, it's no guarantee that where it goes after that. Um, but it is, it's, um, it's unfortunate because I think that as a, you know,

▶ 1:34:25 Leila Migliorelli: if we were looking forward and saying, you know, we're gonna invest in this, uh, ev um, charging station, we're gonna find grants for that. We're gonna find grants for a trash truck and other trucks, and just having a sense of how to map that out over time is helpful in making these decisions. Otherwise, they sort of feel like it's a little bit piecemeal. Um, so that's my thoughts on it now. Um, Councillor Williams raised his hand for a second, second Time, I just wanted to point out that we should have an electric charging station because we all approved one. Actually it was Councilor Gar paid that, um, moved the motion in 2022, January 18th. Um, and it was a 240 volt charger for exclusive use of the police department.

▶ 1:35:05 And it was like $12,000 from the state, $10,000 from the city, and it was supposed to be in fairly quickly. And that was over a year ago. So I haven't personally inspected it myself, but it should be there. It should be there. It should Be there. I don't know. You tell me. I believe that's the one that the police vehicle Part correct. Plugs into. Correct. Yeah. It should be, should be. It came with the order to buy the Mach and all that stuff. Okay. Anyone else on discussion? What is the will of the committee President Greg? Thank you, Madam Chair. I will make a motion to amend appropriation 2023 dash 26 to direct $481,600 to the Capital stabilization fund. Second, Um, president Gregor Motion to amend this order

▶ 1:36:03 Leila Migliorelli: to direct the, um, money instead to, hold on, let me give, get this back up here again. Um, to amend appropriation 2023 dash 26, um, to have the order for $481,600 to go to Capital Stabilization, um, made by President Greg, seconded by Councilor Caram Shady on discussion, uh, vice chair, Jamal. Dean. Thank you. Um, can you provide more, uh, details on what, when, when this pass and it's amended, you know, like the, the amendment passes and it's not the mon the money is not going to free cash. Um, how it now, what, what's next? What is it that's gonna benefit with the, with you with the order? I don't know if, um, I, I got tiny sense. I am lost two things. I mean, so it doesn't, it doesn't revert to free cash. It goes into capital stabilization,

▶ 1:37:17 Paul Brodeur: and that means it can be allocated for any purpose, including the purchase, you know, including this purchase. Um, at any time after this date, um, the mayor would've to initiate an order to, to, as you know, to release anything out of any of the stabilization funds and then as the will of the council as to whether or not, um, that appropriation would be approved. So what is the difference why we wouldn't keep it in free cash? Because then you can't use it till at least February. Well, you can't, I shouldn't say it because you can't use it until, um, free cash is certified and then again, still up to the, to the mayor to allocate what he or she chooses to go to free cash, you know, to, to be that expenditure. Okay.

▶ 1:38:10 Maya Jamaleddine: So just to be clear, if it doesn't go to free cash, we get to vote on it. Uh, correct. Whether to go again to D P W or to school, we, it's not gonna be limiting us on where to allocate it. Yeah. It would come back just the same when we, when we purchased the street sweeper, that was a capital stabilization request and we had a similarly robust conversation. So yes, it would be up to the council again to decide Yes. But it would allow us to still use it this year and don't wait for next year. Exactly. The, the real benefit of it is that I think it keeps the grant open mm-hmm. To us for a little bit longer while we hone in on our exact costs. And we can come back with maybe even a better number that may be more palatable

▶ 1:38:54 Robb Stewart: for the council. Thank you. Okay. Um, I have Councilor Stewart, councilor Crime Shady, and then Councilor Garvey. Councilor Stewart. Thank you, Madam Chair. Um, and, uh, Madam Chair, I think this is, uh, a viable option. I will support this as, uh, I think it, it gives, uh, the folks in front of us the option to come back with, uh, something that might be more palatable to us. Um, but I will say this Madam Chair, that, um, my concern still stands is that it's a matter of priority every dollar accounts right now. And, you know, there's a lot of open questions about not only the, the EV strategy, but you know, the actual truck and Wet even talked about, everyone talked about the maintenance, but no one talked about the battery and the length of the battery. And, and,

▶ 1:39:47 Robb Stewart: you know, if that's an unknown, that that could be something that could be significant in the future. Point being is, I, I think, uh, we need to see, uh, a plan that accommodates some of the other concerns that's greater than just this situation. I think to, uh, president Grigoraitis point, uh, we need to consider all of the departments, uh, in question here. Cuz there's a lot going on, not just school, but o other demands, uh, that are coming in through the city. And, um, I just, I do not want to see strategic policy driven by grants. I think that's a mistake. Um, you know, in, in great times, it's great. Let's, let's jump all over it in very concerning times. You need to be very careful about having strategy be driven by a grant

▶ 1:40:36 Manjula Karamcheti: of that size. So to me that that's something, but I completely support, uh, the opportunity here. You come back here and I'll support the, the money going to the Capitalization fund. Thank you, Madam Chair. Councilor Chetty. Thank you, Madam Chair. Just In regards to discussion, why I am supporting this amendment. I think as someone who I think unapologetically, I've said it before, wants to give the schools all the money right now, I also do feel that our guests have established that this is actually a need. We do need a truck, and if we are to buy a truck, the electric vehicle is the right option given the research, the recommendations, all of those pieces. So it does allow us the opportunity to keep the grant open.

▶ 1:41:28 Mark Garipay: And I think sometimes our, you know, compromise is important and it seems like it makes sense as a compromise. Thank you. Councilor gpe. Thank you. Just, um, just wanna make sure people at home, um, this clarification, if we vote for this amendment, it gets, goes into the capital stabilization, which is only used for capital purchases equipment. Correct? Yeah. Um, and that will bring the total up to a million, 31,000 in that. Um, um, that's just more of a statement and clarification. Okay. Councilor Eccles, I was actually gonna say something very similar. Um, but I am supportive of this in the sense that, um, I, yeah, I think it is an important distinction that, you know, we couldn't close an operating gap from this stabilization fund like we could if

▶ 1:42:18 Jen Grigoraitis: it went back to free cash. The reason it all supported, I think is that, you know, we need to spend money on fleet maintenance for D P W regardless, um, input it into capital and stabilization will give us some time to assess what we actually want to do. Um, so I plan on supporting it. Any other comments? Do you, you have another comment? President Grigoraitis? I have a comment. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, no, I just, I think just to, um, expand on what Council Garra has said, I mean, the capital stabilization account is for any capital cost in excess of $25,000. I can only imagine how many things on the C I P list, which touch every department in this city, um, are on there. So, whether or not if this amendment succeeds, this goes to a trash truck,

▶ 1:43:05 Jen Grigoraitis: I think is a separate conversation. But I do feel like it, I'm assuming it earns interest when it's sitting in a stabilization account. I hope it is. Um, That's a Ceo Okay. A CFO question. So, you know, in terms of like, it's not holding on, we're leaving it there, right? It's not, It's not a good investment, but it doesn't just say, Right. So at least we're holding onto our money and I feel like the needs in this community far exceed the million dollars that would be in that account. So that to me feels, um, like a viable option. Thank You. Um, I will just echo my colleagues. I feel comfortable with this capitalized stabilization move. Um, because we have no shortage of infrastructure or equipment projects. Um,

▶ 1:43:44 Leila Migliorelli: I agree with Councilor Stewart statement about grants as a fundraiser myself, I know it gets into slippery water when we are chasing money to, to then try to backfill it, um, with a project that fits without looking strategically. So by putting this money into capital stabilization, especially with capital costs increasing so much, um, I think it is something viable that we can look at. Um, moving forward. It does give pause. I know we have the operating pressure on our budget next year, um, but I, we also have capital pressure. So, um, and it will help either Mayor Broder or the future mayor to decide and determine, um, what would be the best way to use this money going forward. Any other comments on the motion ahead of us,

▶ 1:44:31 Leila Migliorelli: which is amending the order to go to capitalist stabilization? Seeing none, Mr. Clerk, Vice chair Jamal Dean? Yes. Councilor Sin? Yes. Councilor Eccles? Yes. Councilor Repe? No. Councilor Stewart? Yes. Councilor Chetty? Yes. Councilor Williams? Yes. President Es? Yes. And Chair Elli? Yes. That's one. A eight? Yes. Then that order passes. Um, and that, um, this is not on our agenda for the evening or the recommendation passes. Um, it's on our agenda for the evening, but will at the next full council meeting be brought up? Thank you for One time. Thank you. Um, and we have more to go. Thank you to our other department heads who have been sitting here. Um, we're moving next to appropriation 2023 dash 34 appropriation from

▶ 1:45:28 Leila Migliorelli: free cash account zero one dash 32 401 in the amount of $66,309 and 58 cents to fire department overtime. 0 1 2 2 1 1 dash 5 1 3 0 0. Tonight we have Chief Collina here with us, um, to speak on this order. Yes. It's you Conversations. Good evening. What orders before us? Um, it is the, sorry. I'm also paying attention to things happening behind you. Um, appropriation of free cash in the amount of $66,309 and 58 cents for fire department overtime costs? Yes. Uh, that money will help, uh, bring, uh, my budget in line. Uh, we've overspent the budget this year due to this shortfall on staffing. Thank you. Do we have any questions from the committee? Motion to recommend for passage. Second. Motion recommend for passage made by Councilor Garipay.

▶ 1:46:33 Leila Migliorelli: Seconded by Councilor Ella. Anyone on discussion scene? Seeing none, Mr. Clerk, vice Chair Jamal Dean? Yes. Councilor Sin? Yes. Councilor Eccles? Yes. Councilor Repe? Yes. Councilor Stewart? Yes. Councilor Chetty? Yes. Councilor Williams? Yes. Present. Greg? Yes. And Chair Elli? Yes. That's nine. Yes. Unanimous. This order will be brought to the full council at our next, uh, later tonight. Thank you for, uh, waiting here, chief co. Enough for that very quick order. Mind doing all set? All set. Oh, Well, actually, you know what I motion to take out of order? The ambulance, um, appropriation 2023 dash 39. So moved. Second Motion to, um, take out of order. Uh, made by Councilor Sins. Seconded by President g Gregor.

▶ 1:47:21 Leila Migliorelli: All in favor? Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Okay. Appropriation 2023 dash 39 is in front of us, in front of us. It's an appropriation from ambulance retained earnings account 6,500 dash 31 90 in the amount of $16,300 to Ambulance Professional Services account. 6,552 dash 5 2 900. Thank you, chief. Thank you. So this order, um, this amount will help, uh, clear up the deficit we have in our professional services line, which pays, uh, for the, um, the fee to our billing company. Our ambulance is pretty busy and it's, uh, far more busier than, uh, we have budgeted for our professional professional services line. So this money will, will be encumbered to pay the, uh, may and June bills that we anticipate. Thank you. Finishing up the year.

▶ 1:48:18 Leila Migliorelli: Thank you. Questions. Motion to recommend Second. Motion To recommend made by Councilor Ella, seconded by Councilor Eccles. Anyone on discussion? Seeing none. Mr. Clerk, Vice Chair Jamal Dean? Yes. Councilor Spinella? Yes. Councilor Eccles? Yes. Councilor Gepe? Yes. Councilor Stewart? Yes. Councilor Chetty? Yes. Councilor Williams? Yes. President Greg? Yes. And Chair Elli? Yes. That's nine. Yes. Unanimous. Okay. This order brought to the next council meeting. Thank you. Thank you Chief. Next up we have appropriation 2023 dash 38 in appropriation from free cash at account zero one dash 32 4 0 1 in the amount of $32,764 and 60 cents to inspection services department 2 41 for a scanning project.

▶ 1:49:06 Tonight we have Director Teleco here, um, to talk on this order. Thank You. Hey, good evening, Gabe. Excuse me, I'm losing my voice from, uh, I needed some water. Um, good evening everyone. Um, I'm here tonight for the appropriation for 32,000 764 60 from the, uh, free cash fund. Uh, the project, um, aims to scan all the department folders and documents and the inspection services. Um, we're gonna be able to free up, uh, physical space in our office, provide the public with instant access to our records, reduce our carbon footprint, eliminate wasteful copying, and, uh, decrease clerical work. Um, this is, uh, a project I was involved at my prior, um, municipality. And, um, I did put a quote together from, uh, the, um, uh, the company that I work with,

▶ 1:50:00 Robb Stewart: um, last time, which, um, um, uh, new England Archive Center, uh, which was a fantastic quote for, for the amount of work that we, um, need to do here. With that, I can take any questions or Thank you questions. Councilor Stewart. Thank you, uh, Mr. Teleco for being here tonight is are you currently scanning, uh, documents today as they come in now? This is legacy. Uh, this is all our old documents that we're having, all our current documents, they're all going, uh, through our, they're being scanned by the, uh, customers that are actually applying for these permits. Okay. So we have current scanning in place. We're just doing historical scanning. Yeah. Okay. Great. That's all. Thank you Madam Chair.

▶ 1:50:47 Councilor Jamal. Dean. Thank You. Um, do we have any interns from the school, the high school, or anything that we can use to support with the scanning? I am not sure about that. I haven't reached out, but I did discuss this project prior with, um, and during our department head meeting. This was when I first got hired, and I don't think anyone expressed any kind of equipment or anything like that, that could have been utilized to do something like this. So Are we having issue with the equipment or are we having issue with the bodies? Well, so we don't have this type of equipment. It's very specialized, huge equipment that, uh, I would doubt the school would have. It's probably the size of a small,

▶ 1:51:35 you know, two of these tables put together. And it's, it's scanning different size, um, documentation. So it's not just a sheet of paper, it's talking about full scale plans where they actually have to take a part, the paper clips, and then put them through this large, uh, scanner. And it's, it's a, it's a conveyor belt kind of process where they, I wouldn't, I wouldn't even know where to start with, like just doing it on my own or through the school department to do something like that. Mm-hmm. Okay. Thank you. Anyone else? Councilor Repe. I'll make a motion to recommend for passage. Second motion, recommend for passage made by Councilor Repe. Seconded by Councilor Williams On discussion. Seeing none. Mr.

▶ 1:52:19 Leila Migliorelli: Clerk, Vice chair Jamal? Yes. Councilor Ella? Yes. Councilor Eccles? Yes. Councilor gpe? Yes. Councilor Stewart? Yes. Councilor Chetty? Yes. Councilor Williams? Yes. Present Varda? Yes. And Chair gui? Yes. That's nine. Yes. Unanim. Thank You. Thank you. Um, next up we have appropriation 2023 dash 41 and appropriation from free cash account number 0 1 3 2 4 0 0 1 in the amount of 86,000 186,000 $135 and 35 cents to Pine Bank's Department 652 for capital items. Um, as we received an email from the Mr. Keyser, um, talking about the nature of this order being for a dugout and dog, p dog park bench roofs and the amount of 22,000 pickleball court, 34,000 truck replacement, 30,000. And these costs represent, um, the Melrose share of these expenses.

▶ 1:53:28 Leila Migliorelli: What is the will of the committee? Motion To Recommend Second. Motion to recommend made by Councilor Ella, seconded by Councilor Williams. On discussion. Seeing none, Mr. Clerk, Vice Chair Jamal Dean? Yes. Councilor Ella? Yes. Councilor Eccles? Yes. Councilor Gepe. Yes. Councilor Stewart? Yes. Councilor Chetty? Yes. Councilor Williams? Yes. President Navarez? Yes. And Chair Ley? Yes. That's signed? Yes. Unanim Unanim. Okay. This Order will be brought to full counsel, um, appropriation 2023 dash 46 and appropriation from free cash account zero one dash 3 2 4 0 1 in the amount of $224,998 and 80 cents to the police department for overtime costs and a case cracker system. Thank behalf we have Chief Fowler here.

▶ 1:54:21 Yes. Good. Good evening everyone. Madame Chad. Thank you. Um, I know it's been a long night. I won't be as quick as Chief Collina nor as long as the D P w, hopefully, but, um, uh, real quickly, just to, just to, I think you got my memo just to, uh, give you a little history of why we're here and why we're in that deficit. Uh, when I came on in December, I walked into a good thing where we had five offices just graduate the academy. So I actually walked into a good staffing level at that time. But the first five months of this fiscal year, they were, they were severely shorthanded in, um, in staffing. And the overtime budget at that time was already spent. I walked into a, a negative deficit because of the short staffing.

▶ 1:55:03 So we made some improvements in the last five or six months due to the increasing staffing. The problem is, uh, we hired five and in December that hit the streets. I lost four since December to now. So we're actually unfortunately sort of going backwards, but with the cooperation of you all and the mayor, we do have funding to fill those spots. But those take, like I said from my budgetary, we're talking at least 12 months before an officer is hired, goes to the Academy field, trains and actually makes an impact on openings, overtimes and so forth. So I'm here to, uh, request that money, um, to make up the deficit that we have. Uh, the reasons being what I just said, we were so shorthanded the first half of the year with the cooperation of the

▶ 1:55:49 unions and some schedule changes and shift allocations and moving people around. I think we're in a little bit of a better spot moving forward. Uh, the three offices that retired since I got on or transferred, there were significant buyouts contractually that they had to get paid out on. So, uh, you know, that costs money out of that salary and wages line item. Um, the overtime, we spent $32,000 this fiscal year so far on community city slash quasi city events. Um, like summer stroll, uh, the holiday, uh, chamber combat, all that type of stuff that, that affects our overtime item. That, that was about 32,000 and we spent about 53,000 in community events overall, which I think we still need to do.

▶ 1:56:35 And I think last time I was here for the budget, I talked about mandated overtime, which, um, mandated training, which comes out of our overtime budget. And that's 56 hours for 49 offices, roughly about $140,000. Uh, I think next fiscal year. We sort of realign that to account for what's training and what's overtime and what's training over time. Um, so I'm here to respectfully request that money to make up the deficit that we had. Um, the case cracker, the other li i item that's included in that $224,000, uh, if you don't know, that's uh, video, um, for interviews and interrogations for suspects, witnesses and so forth, uh, which is required on a Commonwealth versus Dgm BS to anytime you interview

▶ 1:57:23 someone or specially interrogate someone in a, in a police station, you're mandated to record it audio and video for, uh, for trial purposes that this case cracker system will also cover our booking system. Um, which is obviously you have to record all your bookings that come in for liability issues, but also for, uh, criminal trials. Uh, any OUIs, pretty much any defense attorney who's worth the assault will ask for the, the O ui, uh, booking amongst other bookings. So that system is old. Um, when we got it, I, I think it was about five years ago, I w it was actually refurbished. It was a used system. It was never, it was never new. We ran into some problems with it failing. We had an O UI case where the, we needed the, uh, booking video, uh,

▶ 1:58:08 and it was no lo it wasn't available due to, uh, issues with the machine. And that's tough to explain to a da and defense attorneys that we, we don't have the, the video that was requested. So this will solve our problem, brand new system up to date technology, um, moving forward. Um, and that's pretty much it. I respectfully requests the, the authorization. If you have any questions, be happy to answer them. Councilor Williams. Thanks. Um, so is this case cracker a portable system or is it a room system cameras in the room or is it like in a briefcase? Cause they Oh, it, it's all hard. It's in the room. So there's it's in the room. Yeah. There's one in the interrogation room, interview room,

▶ 1:58:44 Ryan Williams: and then one in the booking room. Right. And we have cameras in the interrogation room currently. Yes. But they're not very good. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I get you. Um, and are you concerned at all with the ongoing discussions about the public safety building with installing a camera system? Is it, do you find it'll be easy to remove and put in the new building? I mean, I, I'd have to talk to the tech. It, it, it should be, but even if hopefully we get the approval for it, we we're still looking until 2027. I see, I see. Ish. So we, we have, we have time that I think the life of that, even if it wasn't transported over would be pretty good. Um Okay. But I, but I think they shouldn't have a problem bringing that over.

▶ 1:59:25 Jen Grigoraitis: Yeah. Okay. Very good. Appreciate it. Thanks Sean. That's it. Anyone else? President Grigoraitis. Thank you Madam Chair. Thank you Chief for being here. Um, totally in support of all of this. Just a few follow up questions on the case Cracker system cuz I appreciate wanting to make sure that we're, um, recording what we need for the DA and defense attorneys. Um, is there gonna be any type of annual maintenance fee and is there, I mean, are we gonna be able to build that into your budget going forward? Um, no, I believe we're good. I think I'd have to, let me get back to you on that, but I think that's like encompassing and it comes with a pretty significant warranty too. Okay. And do you know, we had kind of a robust discussion with the IT department about, um,

▶ 2:00:08 Jen Grigoraitis: multifactor identification and just kind of general security measures for accessing city IT systems. I'm assuming this system comes with its own security protocols that we need to follow to ensure that these, it's not hacked, it's not being accessed by anyone who doesn't have authorization to it. Yes, and I and I about it, ive got discussions with, um, Neil and, and Tom and, and Okay. And that crew, they, they're familiar with the system. Okay. Thank you. Sure. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll make a motion to recommend second Motion recommend made by President Grigoraitis, seconded by Councilor Ella on discussion, seeing none. Clerk, vice chair Jamal Dean. Yes. Councilor Ella. Yes. Councilor Eccles. Yes.

▶ 2:00:48 Councilor Gpe. Yes. Councilor Stewart? Yes. Councilor Chetty? Yes. Councilor Williams? Yes. President of your Yes. And chair Elli? Yes. That's nine. Yes. Unanimous. This is recommended for passage. Thank you. Thank You. Right. We're, we're done. Motion to Adjourn. Second. Motion Adjourned. Made by Councilor Williams. Seconded by, I don't know who's Councilor Stewart. Um, all. Yeah. Um, all in favor? Aye. Aye. Aye. Any uh, opposed? Nope. No. Right now adjourned. Hey, and we are back in the full council meeting. So moving right along. We are in, um, communications from his honor, the mayor and other city officials. Mr. Clerk Order 2023 dash 99 acceptance of the Foundation Trust Partnership grant and the amount of $10,000 for the Melrose Council on Aging.

Appropriations & Oversight Committee — 2023-06-20

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