Legal & Legislative Committee — 2015-03-09
Attendance
Jaclyn L. Bird ; Robert A. Boisselle ; Donald L. Conn Jr. ; Scott M. Forbes ; Gail Infurna ; Jennifer L. Lemmerman ; Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis ; Monica C. Medeiros ; Peter D. Mortimer ; John N. Tramontozzi ; Francis X. Wright Jr.
Agenda
Minutes
CITY OF MELROSE LEGAL & LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE CALENDAR● MARCH 9, 2015 Aldermanic Chamber Committee Meeting 8:00 PM The public should take notice that the Melrose Board of Aldermen may, on certain occasions, have a quorum in attendance due to standing committees of the Board of Aldermen consisting of both voting and non-voting members. Members attending this duly posted meeting are participating and deliberating only in conjunction with the business of the standing committee. Attendee Name Title Status Arrived John N. Tramontozzi Chairman Present Francis X. Wright Jr. Vice Chairman Present Peter D. Mortimer Ward 6 Alderman Present Scott M. Forbes Ward 7 Alderman Present Jaclyn L. Bird Alderman at Large Present Donald L. Conn Jr. President/Ex-officio Member Present Robert A. Boisselle Nonvoting Member Present Gail M. Infurna Nonvoting Member Present Jennifer L. Lemmerman Nonvoting Member Present Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis Nonvoting Member Present Monica C. Medeiros Nonvoting Member Present
ORDER-2015-104 Amending Revised Ordinances Amend Melrose Revised Ordinances, Chapter 177-12: Snow and ice removal as set forth herein. Hold City of Melrose Page 1 Updated 3/19/2015 3:23 PM
Transcript
▶ 1:30:24 John N. Tramontozzi: legislative committee motion to close public participation mr. chairman second okay seeing no members of the public wishing to come forward at this time we have a motion by alderman Mortimer and seconded by alderman Forbes to close public participation on the motion all favor any opposed seeing none we close the public participation I'll entertain a motion to recess for recess there's a motion to resect Alvin bird seconded by Alderman Mortimer on the motion all favor aye we are currently in recess and we'll go back to the Appropriations committee gentlemen mr. mayor miss Grover would you please join us once again and we're back in session alderman lemmerman you have the floor you're all set with your comments thank you very
▶ 1:31:30 Peter D. Mortimer: much. Is there any discussion among the aldermen or a motion? Motion to recommend. We have a motion to recommend for passage from Alderman McAteer-Margolis, duly seconded by Alderman Lemmerman. On discussion? Bird. Sorry, that was my second. Okay, that was Alderman Bird who made that second, but duly seconded nevertheless on discussion among the aldermen seeing no discussion we're ready for the vote all in favor please say aye aye any opposed hearing none oh excuse me sorry gentlemen may I have a show of hands on the oppose please you couldn't hear me I just want to make sure okay so we have nine in favor and two opposed so the motion to recommend made and duly seconded does pass and this order will be recommended for passage at our next
▶ 1:32:31 Peter D. Mortimer: full board unless this is specific request and it would be probably directed you need not come back again that's generally the way things happen that the business is conducted in the committee meetings and then the votes The votes are taken at the full board. So we want to thank you very much for coming, and we want to thank you for allowing the residents to have an opportunity to save money. And I just say for the people out there, be careful because there are some scam artists on the telephone. You call up, they'll give you a good rate for three months, and then they'll jack it through the ceiling. So people at home, please watch yourself. There can be some bad characters out there as we know.
▶ 2:24:25 John N. Tramontozzi: Thank you, Chiefs, for being here tonight. Appreciate your patience. Motion to adjourn. Motion to adjourn by Alderman Mortimer, second by Alderman Byrd. All those in favor? Aye. Finance Committee is now adjourned. One more. Good evening, we're going to reconvene the legal and legislative committee. There is one order on the agenda this evening. That's order November 2015-104, order to amend the Melrose Revised Ordinances, chapter 177-12, snow and ice removal as set forth herein. This order is sponsored by Alderman Francis Wright Jr., who's the Vice Chairman of the Legal and Legislative Committee. Well, we have before us the order, and I turn the floor over to Alderman Wright. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:25:36 Francis X. Wright Jr.: As you indicated, this is an order to amend Section 177-12 of the Code of Ordinances, which relates to the removal of snow and ice. The bulk of this order consists of an ordinance that already exists on our books. if as you look on your tablet you'll notice the changes I'm proposing are set forth in bold truth be told I drafted and filed this after the first storm so I think that based on the nature of this winter this is both a good and a bad year as for the purposes of looking at an ordinance such as this good because we've certainly seen the issues that snow can create in a miss municipality particularly for our pedestrians our students walking to school the elderly trying to get downtown get to shows get to the Council on Aging etc but it's a
▶ 2:26:46 Francis X. Wright Jr.: bad one because it definitely is a year when moving this snow has been a challenge for all of us so I don't want to use this year necessarily as as an example of every year but I do believe that what I see in the city is a considerable amount of effort to clear our sidewalks by the residents that somewhere north of 90 percent probably north of 95 percent of our residents do a good job of clearing their sidewalks so the pedestrians can get by but there is that other 5% or so that don't and quite honestly they'll either not clear their sidewalk or what I find particularly aggravating is the people who clear their sidewalk from their front walkway to their driveway so they can get to their car and don't clear the rest of their sidewalk so those who are
▶ 2:27:49 Francis X. Wright Jr.: walking can get get get to where they need to be in a safe manner by traveling on the sidewalk we all have a legal obligation like it or not to clear the sidewalk in front of our house there is a letter I believe mr. chairman you would receive from the city solicitor you want me to read it and yeah if you if you would I don't know I don't believe it's attached to the order but in any event yeah if you would read it that would be helpful there is a just for the members of the public and the the board's notification there's a letter dated February 27 2015 written by Robert Van Campen who is our city solicitor. He says, I am writing in connection with Order 15-104, which seeks to amend certain
▶ 2:28:41 John N. Tramontozzi: sections of Chapter 177-2, Snow and Ice Removal, of the Monroe's revised ordinances. Please accept this correspondence in response to Alderman Wright request for my opinion relative to this order. Cities and towns in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts are statutorily empowered to regulate the removal of snow and ice from public sidewalks in accordance with General laws chapter 85 section 5 that statute provides cities by ordinances and towns by bylaw may provide for the removal of snow and ice from sidewalks within such portions of the city or town as they consider expedient by the owner occupant of land abutting such upon such sidewalks such ordinances and bylaws shall determine the time and manner of removal and shall affix penalties not
▶ 2:29:31 John N. Tramontozzi: exceeding $50 in the case of a city or $10 in the case of a town for each violation thereof the current language of chapter 177 dash 2 as well as the amendments now being considered by this committee are in compliance with the statutory requirements set out above in addition it should be noted that the liability of property owners has been expanded over the past several years to eliminate any distinction between the natural and unnatural accumulation of snow and ice when determining liability for snow and ice-related injuries. In July of 2010, the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court decided the case of Papadopoulos versus Target Corporation, which marked the end of the centuries-old rule in Massachusetts
▶ 2:30:17 John N. Tramontozzi: of limiting liability in those circumstances where there had been a natural accumulation of snow and ice, and has now expanded liability to property owners regardless of whether such accumulation was natural or unnatural today property owners have a duty to ensure the reasonable safety of their visitors regardless of the source of any potential danger in the vicinity of their property the amendments being offered by Alderman Wright are consistent with and appear to effectuate the underlying tenants of the Papadopoulos decision if members have any additional questions please do not hesitate to contact me very truly yours robert van campen thank you mr chairman so i i'd like to go through the proposed changes but
▶ 2:31:02 Francis X. Wright Jr.: just as a further uh prelude to that um to me i mean this is about public safety this is about this being a walkable city now if we want to be texbury or wilmington or one of those towns where everyone jumps in their cars and goes everywhere then that's fine maybe we don't need to be walkable but i don't think that's melrose i think melrose is a town where people want to be able to walk their children to school want to be able to walk downtown want to be able to walk to their neighbors i want to be able to go down the street and help the help their neighbors as necessary and i don't think you should have to put your life in your hands or put your children's lives at risk because they might have to travel into the street to do that we've seen two children
▶ 2:31:47 Francis X. Wright Jr.: run down by cars in quincy because of that i traveled today i had an appointment in wakefield before this i traveled from the malden line to wakefield and back and i still see properties not that many and i think that's to the credit of the residents of the city but there are still some properties in this city where you cannot walk on the sidewalk despite the fact that we haven't had snow in a couple of weeks and i i don't think that's acceptable i don't think there's anyone in the city who has not had an opportunity in the last two weeks to clear the snow so with that said I will get off my high horse and I'll go through my proposed changes so if you look at it and one further caveat I don't know what
▶ 2:32:37 Francis X. Wright Jr.: these code sections are that are in parentheses I don't I didn't put those there somehow when I sent it to the city clerk those ended up being inserted but we can we can address that so general section a I've added the word curb ramp and the so it would now read no owner tenant or occupant of land or a building or any agent thereof in this city shall cause any snow or ice from said land or building to be placed in the sidewalk curb ramp road or other public way in the city and I think from my perspective one curb ramps are not there's an issue when it comes to snow removal when it comes to corners we all know that how snow gets plowed and curb ramps to me are not right on the corner if this is
▶ 2:33:26 Francis X. Wright Jr.: the corner the curb ramp is here or the curb ramp is here or maybe both so it isn't impossible to shovel through like you would perhaps at a snow pile here be removal required on sidewalks the owner of tenant or occupant of any estate including but not limited to those sections of the city containing commercial office and then I've added the word residential and building manufacturing facilities shall cause all snow and ice to be removed from the sidewalks and curb ramps by joining such a state and I've added the language to allow for the safe travel of pedestrians along the full length of such a joining sidewalk by at least 42 inches in width where possible and that's an ADA issue but I do want it to be where possible where people are able to do that and
▶ 2:34:14 Francis X. Wright Jr.: then it would remain within six daylight hours after snow has ceased to fall what has drifted there on from a building I think I would also add to that language that would state or after a snow emergency has ended whichever is later so if the city has declared a snow emergency you would have six hours after daylight begins after the snow emergency ends see all the men right could you repeat was that so you wish to ensure I will make an amendment but I just want people to be aware of that that's something I'm thinking of as well so see I've not changed at all and that's removing snow from a former building that's overhangs the sidewalk and that's more like a main street type issue I think we all know there are some buildings in city where they have signs
▶ 2:35:11 Francis X. Wright Jr.: watch out for falling ice and snow D I have not touched clearing sidewalks e enforcement the superintendent of Public Works and his or her designee shall have the authority to enforce all provisions of section 177 12 and upon petition demonstrating serious hardship due to the combination of health and financial limitation temporarily exempt owners and occupants of one or two family residential properties as as to said owner owners one or two family residents and the Melrose police is authorized to assist in the enforcement of section 177 12 so the thought process here is I understand that there are going to be people who have limitations whether they're financial whether they're physical and I don't want to see those people punished I think Melrose is a
▶ 2:36:01 Francis X. Wright Jr.: community where we can count on our neighbors I know in my neighborhood people help out those who unable to help themselves and I think that will be the situation unfortunately you know that may not happen within the six hours I don't want to see anyone penalized because they're unable to to either do it themselves or to compensate somebody to remove the snow and from the sidewalk in front of their place so that's the purpose of that proposed amendment and e2 I believe yeah just because of all these code sections I want to make sure I get it right mr. chairman whoever violates any of the provisions and it should be of subsection a through C above of section 177-12 shall be fined $50 per day with the exception of the first offense violation of
▶ 2:37:08 Francis X. Wright Jr.: owner-occupied residentially zoned one and two family properties. Which first offense shall be a warning, setting forth the penalty for subsequent offenses. Should snow or ice remain the day following the issuance of a warning, the fine shall issue for the purposes of this ordinance whether an offense is a first or subsequent offense shall be based upon violations commencing October 1 through May 30th three owners shall be liable for any violations of subsections and again a through C of section 177 12 for I've made no changes to for although I would add because of that coding issue upon neglect or violation of subsections a through C and of section 177 12 I'm sorry it would be a to B in that case because in this situation the duties may be performed by
▶ 2:38:11 Francis X. Wright Jr.: the superintendent of Public Works or his or her agent at the expense of the person or entity liable to perform those duties so for instance if somebody were to just not be willing to do it if we sent out DPW and DPW could you charge that back are you exempting C from that provision I would exempt C because I don't think we want DPW going up on people's buildings so and then five would remain unchanged the city solicitor with the approval of the mayor may in civil actions prosecute and adjust claims and erring to the city under the provisions of this section so I know we've dealt with this issue in the past again I I don't believe that most of the people in Melrose create a problem I think the vast majority of people in Melrose take care of their
▶ 2:39:02 Francis X. Wright Jr.: sidewalks and try to make it easy for their neighbors to travel in front of their properties and I think that it's incumbent upon us to make sure that those who don't are encouraged to do so and to me this is about compliance this This is not about collecting a penalty. It's about giving people an impetus to do that which they have an obligation to do. Because I don't think we want to leave it to the court. I don't think we want to wait until some child ends up going out into the street because they couldn't travel on the sidewalk in front of someone's property. That child gets hurt. And now under the Papadopoulos case that was cited by the city solicitor, that child who his parents can sue, that's not my, I don't think that's something I want to be feeling
▶ 2:39:57 Francis X. Wright Jr.: proud about as an alderman is that I decided that it was more important to let somebody not shovel their sidewalk and put the children trying to get to the Lincoln School or the Roosevelt School for more three at risk because somebody decided that it wasn't convenient they couldn't get you know they couldn't get out there and shovel they were hurry they were in a hurry they need to get to work or whatever but I'm interested in hearing everyone's ideas certainly open to other alternatives a lot of what I took here for changes I found from the town of Arlington so I you know I look forward to hearing everyone's comments thank you mr. Jim thank you Alderman Mortimer is up first point of order I think before
▶ 2:40:43 John N. Tramontozzi: anything happens we need a motion and a second before there's any discussion what so there's a motion to suspend the rules they have the discussion a motion to recommend you I think you need a motion to recommend and a second before we proceed with discussion motion to recommend well there's Alderman Wright make it is moving to recommend do we have a second I'll second it for the purposes of discussion oh I'm not on this committee sorry I'll second for the purpose of discussion Alderman Forbes who second the motion for purposes of discussion on the motion all in favor Alderman Boisselle I think I'm sorry now that now that we are open for discussion now you want to discuss it right right We have to have a motion and a second before we can have discussion.
▶ 2:41:43 Peter D. Mortimer: You got it. Go right ahead. I'm entirely in favor of the sentiment behind these changes. I have a daughter who went to the Winthrop last year and now goes to the middle school. I'm a runner in this city. My older daughter, who's 14, frequently runs on the street. I know some of the aldermen here are runners to the streets, and it's annoying when there are places. Part of me, on the other hand, though, thinks that if there's greater than 95% people who do shovel their sidewalks, then that's pretty good. that maybe there's a time when the hand of government doesn't need to intervene and we can rely on the goodwill of our friends and neighbors that that that's the first point that I'd like to make why I'm generally not in support of
▶ 2:42:51 Peter D. Mortimer: making a change at this time the second thing I'd like to say about this is a lot of Melrose has no sidewalks in front of the property all of Slayton Road just just for one example places even close to downtown on Leonard Road there were no sidewalks and you can probably think if you can remember when everything wasn't covered with snow lots of places there's no sidewalk so it kind of defeats the purpose if the people who have a sidewalk have to shovel and then you have houses with a sidewalk, and then when you come to the next set of houses, there's no sidewalk and the people have to go on the street anyway. That kind of undermines the very decent purpose behind this order. Another problem I have is with the enforcement, with the police or the DPW, the question can
▶ 2:43:53 Peter D. Mortimer: become and we don't want to get into a problem where there may be some bad blood between police officers and a homeowner or some DPW people and a homeowner and the question can become what is shoveled and what is not now if you're downtown you can pretty much tell what shoveled if you're here in the business districts you can tell what shoveled but you know somebody shovels but then a little more snow falls there are actually places in the neighborhood around the common where I run and walk where the people did go out and try to shovel and it snowed a little more and a lot of people walking to school have now packed it down that it's it's a solid sheet of ice which is dangerous on the sidewalk but it's nearly impossible to remove until the temperature goes above
▶ 2:44:43 Peter D. Mortimer: 35 or so so somebody like that gets in a problem you know the DPW or the police come by and say well this isn't shoveled the next problem I have is people who are older sick and they're sick for a short time they had a heart attack they have the flu etc or they were in a position where they can't afford to pay maybe they're getting ready to sell the house but for now they can't afford to pay somebody so that's a problem especially where the warning can be given and then the fines will pile up at $50 a day and sometimes people who are in those positions aren't savvy enough or energetic enough to even petition to get the hardship exception to the rule another issue that happens in Melrose along the same point is a lot of times people who live in Melrose will go to
▶ 2:45:43 Peter D. Mortimer: Florida or elsewhere, but mostly Florida for a month, two months, three months, and they're not there. Now, it's true that somebody who does that should be able to hire a contractor if they have that kind of money, but what if their contractor doesn't show up and no one calls them and the contractor, for whatever reason, gets hurt himself, has other jobs, goes to to jail, whatever, that they can't show up. Well, people who shovel snow, it's sometimes people who are looking for hard work. And so they don't show, and now the person's in Florida, and they've got a spate of $50 fines waiting for them when they come back from Florida. I'd also like to comment on the Papadopoulos case. That was a case that involved Target Corporation, and that case was talking about snow that was put there in Natchez,
▶ 2:46:51 Peter D. Mortimer: but it was talking about a corporation, a place of business, and it was also talking about visitors. It wasn't talking about passersby who don't come on the property. It was talking about people who go to Target and to use Target. It wasn't talking about somebody who just walks by in front of your house. That case, really, that the city solicitor sent us is not on point. That case is not on point. I would say that the last problem with it is, speaking of grounds for suit, as was mentioned around that case, is if someone shovels and they follow the ordinance, as probably everybody on this board knows, but the lawyers know, violation of a statute or an ordinance is a prima facie case for negligence.
▶ 2:47:46 Peter D. Mortimer: If someone goes through a stop sign and something happens, if somebody's speeding and something happens, the person who's violating the ordinance is pretty much assumed to be negligent in a civil sense, not just in the criminal sense, but if a civil suit is brought then for the damage done by going through the stop sign it's it's a very very good case now if someone shovels their sidewalk but somebody walks down the sidewalk and slips and twists their knee or falls and hits their head now they bring a suit and say well you didn't shovel your sidewalk well enough or if someone doesn't shovel their sidewalk at all for a three-inch snow let's say it's a just It's a three-inch snow or a two-inch snow, and the people don't shovel their sidewalk.
▶ 2:48:31 Peter D. Mortimer: Somebody walking down the sidewalk slips and falls and hurts themselves in some manner. Well, the person who owns the house has violated the statute, and there's a prima facie case that they're negligent and liable for the person's injuries who slipped in front of their house. So based on these points, I'm disinclined to support this, although I think the motives for it are very, very good. But I think right now, as was mentioned, we have over 90 or 95 percent of people who are out shoveling their sidewalks. So I would think at this point it would be better to, if it's mostly not broken, if it's 95 percent not broken, I don't think we really need to fix it at this point for the seven reasons that i listed here thank you very much very good parliament boyzo my concerns are are
▶ 2:49:28 Robert A. Boisselle: basically in paragraph b uh we have the six daylight hours in 42 inches i mean a November of constituents believe they try to get out their back door shovel to their car get their material or get the snow away from the car back out before the plow comes and go to work or go to the nearest parking lot and they won't be home for another eight hours or ten hours depending what happens and those who had snow blowers did a great job on their sidewalk but the plows with 42 inches that some of the sidewalks are only 24 inches in mine some of my streets plows come by two or three hours later and part of that is gone half of that shovel or snow plowed or blower the way is snow plowed again and the trucks keep coming and they get closer and closer and more
▶ 2:50:26 Robert A. Boisselle: snow goes into the sidewalk so the individuals out there again shoveling but if something happens between that time that individual got at least 24 to 36 inches but that's 42 inches will never be there especially with the plows coming through the neighborhoods and I mean some neighborhoods we even go up on the east side the mounds are still there and the sidewalks are just barely 24 inches at that point so I think the measurement and time is what sort of bothers me in the point that individuals try to get out and get to work won't be back for at least eight to ten hours cruiser comes by hey you didn't shovel your sidewalk leaves a ticket on the door I don't know I mean you may never have that case because the police may have more problems besides checking sidewalks at
▶ 2:51:17 Jaclyn L. Bird: this at that time after a storm and so forth and that's it thank you very good um alderman bird thank you mr chairman um first i'd like to thank alderman wright i think um for you know just bringing this issue up as a discussion point and um the humility with which he approached it tonight which you know as far as wanting to hear feedback from the committee and you know kind of being open to suggestions and fine-tuning the order possibly I don't want mean to put words in your mouth but I certainly don't think that anyone could have forecasted pun intended how much snow we were going to have after this order was filed so I think that we sorry it's late but I think that I would be open to the idea of talking about this a little bit
▶ 2:52:13 Jaclyn L. Bird: further away from the current situation when we still have this much snow on the ground and we're still trying to sort of come to terms with how much we've received and how our snow removal efforts have gone I have some issues with the fines I am completely on board with underscoring the importance of clearing the sidewalks and the in the importance of keeping Melrose a walkable city at the same time I'd love a more in-depth look of how we handled all of our snow removal efforts I think you know our DPW crews did a fantastic job I also think there are some issues that we can improve always and that included snow removal even at the Hoover School where we don't have the luxury of a sidewalk on a sunny day for the most part so the idea that you know we had
▶ 2:52:56 Jaclyn L. Bird: some plows that were still plowing while drop-off was going on so there were some complications there and some safety concerns and I think it would be great when some of the snow melts to kind of hold off on some of these discussions and take a really in-depth look at a variety of ways that we can improve and sort of address those 5% of people that might be creating a problem and also make sure that we're not assuming the solution is one thing and maybe it's another maybe it's more about drop-off procedures for the schools and less about walking or maybe that's only the case for certain schools but really trying to take an in-depth thoughtful approach to it I would support so thank you mr. chairman and thank you very good forps thank you mr. chairman all in
▶ 2:53:41 Scott M. Forbes: right I think the order is a very noble one there were many times this winter where I saw I I gotten two accidents on my street alone in three days because of the snow because the narrowness of the streets there was no place to park there was no place to go and the sidewalks were not plowed there are however a couple of concerns with with the order and for me it's the six hours I would violate the six hour order every time and for me it's because I go to work and everybody in my neighborhood we snow we snowblow at night we go to work early we come home and we clear everything off at night if it stops snowing mid-morning I'm in violation of the six-hour order if that were maybe a 12-hour period I could be on board with something like that and I would be it's
▶ 2:54:38 Scott M. Forbes: something I would definitely take into consideration there's also areas on my street that the DPW dumps snow onto the sidewalk because there's no other place for it to put now this year was an apparition because of the amount of snow but even in years past they use sections of the sidewalk as a dumping ground so if this is going to be an ordinance that's going to be voted on they need to make sure that they're not going to do that part of it they're going to have to keep the sidewalks clean there's also certain homes in certain neighborhoods that have sidewalks that are grass and I know all the more more talked about it but in particular my wife's grandparents they're 90 years old and they have a
▶ 2:55:28 Scott M. Forbes: sidewalk that nobody uses it's a non walkable sidewalk but if it is considered a sidewalk and they have to create a 42 inch path that no one uses it for walking purposes then maybe that's something that they could file an amendment or something like that with the city to see if maybe that's something that they would not have to because nobody uses that side of the street to walk and there are certain streets like South High Street that really nobody uses that for walking purposes anyway it's just really a horseshoe where the only people that go down there it's on street parking nobody uses it as an access roadway so maybe there are certain streets that would be designated where maybe that 42 inch sidewalk doesn't doesn't necessarily
▶ 2:56:14 Gail Infurna: apply but I'm definitely on board with with like I agree with what you're saying so I think it need it may need to be tweaked a little bit but it's something I would like to be a part of and would be willing to work with you on Thank You mr. chairman thank you very much mr. chairman I'm not a member of the voting member of the committee but I think we're we're three minutes away from 10 o'clock my blood sugar is getting low and I really appreciate Alderman Wright and bringing this order forward I think it is one that merits a lot of discussion and I think at 10 o'clock at night is not quite the right time to have the discussion since we've all been sitting here since 7 o'clock so I am hoping that maybe we can just place this on hold and bring it up again and
▶ 2:57:01 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: another legal and legislative meeting so we can gather more information from our constituents and actually read this and gather more information and have more comments because I I certainly appreciate the spirit of it all I did have a comment in that I do think that this is a noble and worthwhile order for us to be considering I do however agree with alderman bird that it might be best to look at it in a in a bigger context and I'm wondering if perhaps we may even want to consider putting together you know like a task force that would be made up of the Department of Public Works and someone from the school department someone from you know a couple of different neighborhood communities a couple of I mean there's many many as as Alderman Lemmerman and
▶ 2:57:54 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: Alderman Medeiros know as well as Alderman Kahn there are many streets in our Ward 2 that don't have sidewalks that are just grass you know how are we going to address those I think you know it and I think there is support in the public for doing that for looking at this and for putting something forward but I do think we I would like to personally hear more input from more other sources in the community as to what we should be doing and how we should be doing it because how many times have we gone out and people have legitimately plowed that curb ramp and half an hour later a plow comes by and puts you know and what are they gonna do I mean they have to put it somewhere so is the homeowner gonna have to continue I mean those are questions that I think
▶ 2:58:35 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: we can elaborate on more in a working committee somehow and I'm not really exactly sure what the protocol would be for that but I do think it's I do I do support the concept of it I just would like to see it kind of tightened up and nailed down times hours who's going to give the exemptions you know what the process is going to be for all of that so if there is a way that we could put together some kind of community group with representatives from the city to work on this I would that would be my hope thank you very good President Kahn yeah I'll be quick Mr. Chairman November one everybody needs to look at the context here we have eight feet of snow that we've gotten in six weeks this year is not a normal year there are places in the city where you
▶ 2:59:30 can't you couldn't continue to shovel because there was physically nowhere else to put the snow we've heard many nuanced views of what people think about this I'll give you the non nuanced view not in favor of it won't support it don't like max finding all of our people for a problem that people around here think 95% of the people are in compliance with don't want to support it don't like people having to go to the Public Works Department improve a financial or medical hardship I see incredible enforcement issues here I see an enforcement issue on my own property I live on a corner what if you drive by my house now you can still see that the plows had plowed a bank of snow 10 feet wide and 10 feet high
▶ 3:00:25 up against my wall along my sidewalk sometimes it takes me five hours to shovel out of there after i get a 10 foot bank that's pushed in there by the public works department if the public works department creates an artificial snow bank like that on my property and i can't get it fit shoveled before i go to work uh am i am i at fault and subject to a fine um it's fine to discuss the issue but uh don't support it won't vote for it thank you alderman Medeiros wants to say something too and then i i think i'll turn it over to alderman wright thanks yes and i'm also not a committee member here um i think a lot of the concerns that i might have with this order have been addressed by other aldermen this evening I have to agree I think I'll
▶ 3:01:15 Monica C. Medeiros: have been right for bringing it up and you know it's it's as much as it's been a really tough winter it's exceptionally tough winter there are some real legitimate concerns with you know some people who are just not shoveling the sidewalk and we don't really know a hundred percent of the reason why they're not even attempting to shovel and I think that's the people that most people have frustration with it's not those that have that little extra two or three inches left that you just can't get rid of which you know it would be probably 95% of Melrose would be in violation if that's what that's what we've got but you know I just I watch some of what's happened in some other communities that have these kinds of ordinances and fines in place and it's
▶ 3:02:02 Monica C. Medeiros: just it's it's just an enforcement nightmare we don't have we don't have enough staff to make sure the street lights are on we don't you know this is another enforcement an issue and when there's all that much snow on the road we don't you know just getting into who's gonna go answer all these calls for this one doesn't didn't shovel their sidewalk and it's not good enough it's it's in reality I think it would be unrealistic and you know we talk about safety and it's certainly it's it's something that we you know we all have to cope with I mean we have to make a concerned effort as a city to clear our our school routes for sure and I think we should be clearing our most well-traveled routes in general as a city but you know there's also a safety
▶ 3:02:54 Monica C. Medeiros: hazard with people who you know thankfully I didn't hear of it this year but almost every year you hear of somebody who has a heart attack while they're out shoveling their snow and just as much as I don't want to be the alderman that that you know I don't want to be the alderman that you know put somebody at risk that really couldn't afford it and so they didn't want to get fined $50 a day so they went out when they really weren't up for it and they overdid it to get it done to comply with our ordinance within six hours and they had a heart attack and you know that's kind of extreme but at the same time it's something that does happen I think that something that we did very well a few years ago when these changes were first brought up the original changes
▶ 3:03:39 Monica C. Medeiros: the original ordinance was to have some public awareness in campaign with the media and we talked a lot that year and I think it really did improve things for a while about especially that that block of snow that's in between two driveways where somebody's snow blowed it together and so you know you may have cleaned all the sidewalk but yet here's this big huge you know block of snow people were really working on this is an exceptional year I think you know what we can do as aldermen work obviously with the mayor's office in trying to create some more public awareness one of the things I think was done very well this year in an exceptional year is is getting the word out that there were volunteers
▶ 3:04:24 Monica C. Medeiros: especially a lot of young men and there may have been some young women on there but primarily met young men who had volunteered to help shovel out and getting that list of names and telephone numbers out there I think we could do more I was very happy to see our school system you know say that if you shovel things out that you would get community service credit and I think we could work more on that kind of neighbor helping neighbor it may be in a little bit of an organized way to resolve some of these problems rather than through fines so that's that's my thoughts for tonight I appreciate it thank you thank you well I'm going to turn it back over to Alderman nice thank you mr. chairman just very briefly um I guess I would say I liked Alderman Khan's approach which
▶ 3:05:15 Francis X. Wright Jr.: is let's talk about practicality one is the six hours was already in the ordinance so I didn't touch that that's already there um we can make it 12 we can make it 24 we can make it so that you get a warning after every storm I want to deal with the practical reality of those people who are perfectly capable of clearing their own sidewalk but because they're too busy because all they want to do is get their car out of their driveway because they're in Florida all right they haven't cleared their sidewalk now this may not be an issue where you don't have sidewalks but in Ward 3 in Cork City where we have narrow streets and sidewalks and kids have to walk to the middle school and have to walk to the elementary schools this is an issue so we can give people
▶ 3:06:07 Francis X. Wright Jr.: as much time as they want as you want but if you choose to not want to enforce this on people who are perfectly capable of it then that's the decision of this board and that's fine but I'm trying to deal with problem properties I'm not expecting I don't think anybody on this board thinks that the police are going to go out there with a book of tickets and start writing tickets every sidewalk that hasn't been shoveled come on it's not that's not realistic as for the 42 inches that's what the federal government requires that's what the ADA requires it says 42 inches if possible is what I wrote I don't expect 42 inches but I felt that's the law maybe it's the lawyer in me I don't think the police are gonna go out there with a tape measure and say oh jeez you're only 32
▶ 3:07:04 Francis X. Wright Jr.: inches I think I'm gonna write a ticket and if anyone here believes that's gonna happen please tell me if anyone thinks but because you've got two inches of snow on your sidewalk when there's a snowbank of you know a foot or two on the side that they're gonna write you a ticket tell me because I think we have another issue in the city but perfectly willing to keep this in committee perfectly willing to continue to discuss it but to me it's all about people in my neighborhood being able to walk their kids to school because it happens it still happens with all the snow we have right now there are people who still walk their kids every morning to the Lincoln School I see them on my way out to work and they're dodging snow piles it's gotten better but there are still
▶ 3:07:50 John N. Tramontozzi: properties where it goes on and those are the people who we need to deal with or not deal with but that's up to the people on this committee so I'll end it right there thank you mr. chairman very good well what is the the wish of the committee i have a motion to keep the order in committee all right so right now we have a motion by alderman forbes to retain this order in committee is there a second to that motion second alderman bird seconds that motion any further discussion she is on the committee she is on the committee and alderman forbes is on the committee so we're okay any further discussion any members of the committee saying none um all in favor aye any opposed none so we will hold that in committee um i think that is the
▶ 3:08:41 John N. Tramontozzi: last and only order on the agenda so we have a motion to adjourn second by ultimate second by alderman forbes on the motion all favor aye any opposing none we are adjourned good evening good Good night.