INFO-2022-7 : Information Item Updating City Council on Salt Shed

Transcript (~48 min @ 28:26)

Speakers identified by voice; unnamed voices are numbered within this recording. Auto-caption text — verify against the video.

▶ 28:15 Speaker 1: Yes counselor garpy. Yes counselor. Jamaladin. Yeah Council Carm Shady. Yes counselor bremski. Yes Council Williams. Yes. President sonella. Yes and sugar greatest. Yes, that's

▶ 28:28 Jen Grigoraitis: nine. Yes, great moving on to informational order 2022-7 information item updating City Council on salt shed. This comes to us from the administration and we will be joined under our current suspension of Rules by Two Gentlemen from Weston and Samson. Please feel free to take the table and just for our viewing public at home. We are going to attempt for the first time in the history of the city of Melrose or certainly the city council a hybrid meeting where we are going to have the director of Public Works join us remotely. So we're going to give it a try.

▶ 29:06 Speaker 6: he want to recess my

▶ 29:07 Jen Grigoraitis: link for I think we're gonna first hear from our guests and then bring up the director per weekaselis is my understanding. Is that correct? That's fine. Right? Here we go. We're here and Grand Adventure. So welcome gentlemen, if you don't mind introducing yourself and

▶ 29:25 Speaker 6: then feel free to present. Sure. Yes. Thank you. My name is Jamie fair. I'm a team leader and project manager with Western and Sampson. We're going to give a brief overview of the salt shed project and with me is one of our senior Engineers Tyler cough, Alicia.

▶ 29:43 Speaker 6: So with that I'll go through the presentation. Thank you. So this is just a brief overview of where we currently stand is some of you most of you probably know the existing salt sheds locating at the existing DPW and you can see it located there just to the west of el pond. And as you probably know the salt shed is in very bad shape right now. It's been getting worse over the years when we first started looking at it in 2020. It was in tough shape and they were doing some repairs to keep it going and those have just gotten worse. You can see here that you know, the walls are being pushed out the salt is you know, spilling through openings in the walls and DPW is doing the best they can to, you know, keep things together with with what they have. This shows an example on the left in 2019. You can see a support calm that's sitting on a concrete pier and now in 2022 that's been pushed off of that peer. So there's some very significant structural issues the roof has, you know holes at their patching as they can periodically, but we are definitely getting rain water that comes through you can see the holes that they like coming through the roof here. The sidewalls are failing in places. You can see they're bulging out those sidekickers are rotting. The framing is is really and terrible shape some more shots of the side walls where you have the deterioration that's been going on over the years another shot here. You see the roof is a blue, you know, blew up in a windstorm understand a piece actually flew off and could have potentially hit somebody but thankfully did not some more shots here of the side walls that are in Failure. So this is just sort of a timeline overview of where we are. So we did the initial study in November 2020. We completed an Alternatives analysis report. We looked at three different salt shed Alternatives and we ended up selecting the high arch Gambrell and I'll talk about that process a little more details just sort of an overview right now to give you a sense and then in May 2021 we did. Project and it was not approved. So we worked closely with the DPW Elena and James and we assessed some different fabric structures to try to find a lower cost alternative and we'll talk about that a little more detail and the prices were a little lower but they didn't have the same benefits and utility for the DPW and so is determined to move forward in April 2022 is current April. We rebid the project with the original design working with a lane and James and and also in there and we'll discuss it some alternative sites were looked at throughout this reassessment process. So that's just an overview of what we'll cover and a little more detail on that. So the alternative analysis there's three major types of structures that we looked at the high arch Gambrell structure. The one in the upper left-hand Corner that we ultimately selected the fabric structure in the upper, right? And then they Gable and salt shed in the bottom. The Gable end is similar to what you have now sort of. a smaller version of the high arch gambrel high arch Gambrell is a solid permanent structure wood framed heavy-duty Timbers. And then we also have some accessories. These are all very standard accessories and I'll say the high arch cam Brown and the fabric are standard structures as well for Public Works facilities. So we have a brine system that increases the the salt loading accuracy has like attacking us to it that keeps the salt on the road. So it's more environmentally friendly and also helps to melt the ice at colder temperatures. So you can use less salt on the roads, which is also you know better for budgeting and for the environment loading ramp. It's a very tight site. So we have a loading ramp that can be moved and put away during the off season and that makes it much safer and easier for the folks to operate and low the trucks there often working very long hours. So anything to make it safe and easy is definitely a huge benefit and then we have the advantage of a canopy off the back to get some storage from equipment. Which is, you know desperately needed at the DPW for keep some of their equipment out of the weather. So so numbers that we looked at. So we it really boiled down to the high arch Gambrell versus the fabric with the concrete block wall the fabric and block wall. That's the least expensive option that's available. And so these are all 20 21 numbers where we're waiting for the bids. We'll have the 2022s once they come in and so we had a difference of about 278,000 between the two. And and working with the tpw. They prefer the high arch because the many advantages it's environmentally friendly you can dump the salt completely within the salt sheds. You're not dumping it and then pushing it in and you're near Wetlands you're near L Pond. We're in the the Wetland buffer area. So that's a huge environmental benefit by able to dump inside and also saves on man hours because you don't have to double handle the salt now dump it on the ground and then push it in. So one one motion. So to speak reduces the maintenance and operational costs. I kind of just describe that and then what the fabric structure you have to replace that fabric every once in a while can be more prone to getting hit and damage you won't have that because this is such a tall structure. It's designed specifically to avoid being hit because it is so high has a rare canopy to allow the storage of equipment and we can also accommodate the solar panels on the roof. This is a chart that we put together just to give you a sense of how construction cross costs are progressing. I'm sure you've heard with covid and supply chain that things are going up. You can see the green line is the cost of the high arch Gambrell structure going from 2018. And we projected we could project out the 2022 with those dashed lines the hard number stop it 2021 and then the blue line is a fabric structure just a little less expensive, but you can see the class or definitely trending upward and sort of the the big reason for the jump from 2020 to 2021. That's a look at the initial study costs versus the final design costs and we found during the Geo technical investigation at the site is on a peat layer which would require ground improvements to keep the foundation stabilized and there's also some environmental contamination on site that needs to be addressed. So those costs are part of the large increase. Across that period and then coupled with the supply chain issues that

▶ 36:45 Speaker 8: we've seen with with covid.

▶ 36:49 Speaker 6: And this is a total project cost breakdown just to give you a sense because you can get a quote for a building from a vendor, you know, as an example on the right for a fabric structure sort of an all-in number from a vendor with the wall and everything about 295,000. But what that doesn't give you is all the other costs associated with the site the ground improvements the pavement the site work the ramp and the brine system the electrical construction contingencies. We try to give you a complete project cost. So you have the funding set aside to get you all the way through construction and also account for some perhaps additional work that could be encountered with the environmental issues or other issues like that. So when you hear the building number, that's just keep in mind if you with it's a small piece of the

▶ 37:40 Speaker 8: overall total project cost.

▶ 37:44 Speaker 6: And then these are some examples from other municipalities that we've worked with. We did the the Shrewsbury salt shed. We adjusted all of these to 2021 numbers. So Shrewsbury adjusted is about two million, you know, and we with the high arch gambrel. We're roughly 1.7 and then on the right we show sort of the the special features a canopies Brian system loading ramp environmental considerations in ground Improvement. So we have a check next to the one so so Melrose we have all of those features. So each one of those are included and then for Shrewsbury, you know, we just have the canopy the ramp and the ground improvements and so that's a little more money but it was a bigger salt shed, but it didn't have all the the add-ons. I'll call it or you site considerations that we have here. Raynham was about one point one five million. That was a smaller salt shed. Only had a canopy it didn't have the site issues that we have here. And then Burlington about 1.7 million about the same round numbers slightly bigger, but less of the features I'll say. And then this is some fabric structures. So these costs are a little lower because we're fabric. It's a different style of building as I explained. And so Middleboro went with the fabric there about 1.5 million round numbers Winchester did a small fabric for about 880,000 but that again it's a fabric structure and they didn't have any of the site issues or any of the features that we're going to be using from Melrose. And so these are some photos this is very similar to what's being proposed here, except we have the portable ramp. So this is Shrewsbury salt shed. They have the ramp out front and the canopy. Raynham side mount the canopy. They also had a rear mounted canopy. These are high arch Gambrell structures. Burlington similar high arch gambrel structure. It's the most popular solid shed just due to the utility and durability. So very similar. And then Middleboro, they did go fabric with the cast in place wall. They didn't have the the site challenges that we have but that's an example of what that could look like and then Winchester that smaller one that I was telling you. It's much lower profile fabric structure on a concrete block wall. We also looked at some alternate sites working with Elaine and James say they really LED this part of the effort. And so there was a collaboration with DCR that was discussed. The issue that with DCR is that they were only planning on 800 tons. And you know, we need to add another 1200 on top of that. So it would more than double the size of the shed that they're planning on and they're a couple years out and they're a lot of logistical challenges that were identified and then with Route 99 just due to the location and the distance from many parts of the cities that they had significant concerns with moving forward with that option. And there's a lot here, but I think the question came up as well. What if we didn't build a saw Jet and we just closed out the site and so if we were to just demo the existing salt shed perform the soil remediation and then paved the site. Where round numbers for about 345,000. Big Driver, there is are the contamination issues that

▶ 41:33 Speaker 8: are present, you know.

▶ 41:38 Speaker 8: And so that's everything. Thank you

▶ 41:39 Speaker 3: very much.

▶ 41:43 Speaker 5: In order FaceTime regularly do we not have this in our iqm too

▶ 41:47 Jen Grigoraitis: this presentation? I didn't see it in there way. We

▶ 41:49 Speaker 5: could have this email to us because it's really hard. I can't read I can't read that those figures so you get that email to your questions. Yeah, helpful to get that. Yeah, I can

▶ 41:59 Speaker 6: be done now if possible or email it to you right now. Yeah. Yeah. I think

▶ 42:03 Speaker 8: we can do that. Yeah.

▶ 42:07 Jen Grigoraitis: If you do city council at city of melrose.org, it'll get to all of us, okay?

▶ 42:13 Speaker 6: One easy and and I think the intent was this was sort of an initial presentation more informal meeting and then we're going to come back after the bids are open and go through it again. So just so you can get familiar with

▶ 42:23 Speaker 8: it. Yeah counselor Eccles.

▶ 42:28 Jack Eccles: Thank you. Madam. Chair just I guess just one one question I voted for this last time I based on you know, what the what plan comes before us and think it's an important project. It was listed number one. I keep seeing that support beam. Is there like anything we that can be done. In the meantime. I've seen a picture of that like four or five times and it seems precarious and if we're not gonna finish it by the end of the year is there that might be not a question

▶ 42:56 Speaker 6: for you. But yeah, I mean, we have a structural engineer. I think we could come up with a remedy if

▶ 43:01 Speaker 8: needed I think.

▶ 43:03 Speaker 6: A point we would like to make is that the salt shed is in really really bad shape and to try and repair it and get you through another season. We have a lot of concerns about that and and so the project, you know, it's out to bid now and you know, we're really hopeful that we can you know work with you and get it approved just because we don't know if we can get that salt

▶ 43:28 Speaker 1: shed through another season. We're it's also helpful a lot more than just that support beam. All the Raptors are broken when I was out there visiting taking photos. I was kind of nervous just being around the Salted in general.

▶ 43:38 Jack Eccles: So yeah, I'm not asking for another season I'm asking about today. So that was just kind of my very for

▶ 43:43 Speaker 6: an interim measure. Yeah, that's something we could certainly look at. Yes.

▶ 43:47 Jen Grigoraitis: To think just before we continue with questions. I'm gonna have us bring up director proacas Ellis so that she's also able to hear and/or respond. So if this takes more than a couple seconds, we'll motion to recess. But here we go history in the making.

▶ 44:13 Speaker 4: Motion to recess. Thank you.

▶ 44:16 Speaker 3: Oh sure.

▶ 44:21 Jen Grigoraitis: We'll hold one second on that motion while we see if this works. thank you counselor garepe

▶ 44:31 Speaker 3: Oh, no, we see her.

▶ 44:37 Speaker 3: Can you hear us?

▶ 44:39 Jen Grigoraitis: We can't hear. Okay, we can't hear you. Okay, why don't we take that motion to recess for one second all in favor. Hi. Okay, we'll recess for three minutes.

▶ 45:47 Speaker 9: Can anyone hear me?

▶ 45:53 Speaker 9: There's like a delay.

▶ 46:03 Speaker 3: recess and

▶ 46:12 Jen Grigoraitis: All right. I think we are back from our recess and we are in our first ever hybrid meeting so welcome for awake director prokosellis. And if there are questions from counselors.

▶ 46:24 Speaker 3: counselor Williams

▶ 46:27 Ryan Williams: Ceramic computer turned off. Yes. Hello. This feels weird to turn around because you're technically behind me. Hello. There. You are. Hi. Thanks for joining us remotely pretty cool. So whoever amongst the participants feels comfortable answering the questions, please feel free. My so my first question is there was a couple of comments there was a couple of statements made throughout the course of the presentation about reducing salt use and I want to clarify because I think you're talking about like reducing salt spillage. Maybe the ramp in particular is the goal of the ramp to just reduce spillage by more accurately loading Vehicles. Okay. All

▶ 47:03 Speaker 6: right. It's the other goal. I'm sorry. Yeah good is to make it easier for the load or operator. Yeah, when the loader is up elevated, they can see down into the back of the truck more easily.

▶ 47:16 Ryan Williams: So it makes yeah, okay. Excellent. Same question with the gambrel. Structure reduces you said reduces salt. I assume you mean reduces salt spillages are like a shoot system that a

▶ 47:26 Speaker 6: not so much a chute system. It's a large trailer truck that comes on site and they'll Elevate that to dump it. So inherence, it's

▶ 47:36 Ryan Williams: so high that okay makes sense. Thank you. Appreciate it. Okay. My my next question is where was the DCR site? I'm this is my I'm fairly new to the council. So I don't know here for that discussion. If I could I'll defer

▶ 47:49 Speaker 6: to Elena on that one the location the DCR site.

▶ 47:54 Speaker 9: Or that was on Woodland Road, and it's installed them. a couple miles probably two three miles from the city yard down the Parkway and then down. On street. I guess it's called at that point and then take a right on Woodland. It's kind of across from the zoo.

▶ 48:18 Speaker 9: Oh, yeah, renovating that whole facility and they already shared the salt shed up there with masking routine. But as Jamie mentioned it's an 800 ton salt shed and they're replacing it with another 800 times salt shed. So less than half the size of what Melrose alone would need.

▶ 48:37 Ryan Williams: Okay. Thanks. You showed the Winchester fabric structure. Does Winchester have multiple sites for Salters at the only one they have? That's

▶ 48:46 Speaker 6: the only one I believe, you know, interesting. Um.

▶ 48:47 Ryan Williams: And then the last series questions I have are generally around brining. So there's a brine tank in. This is the intention made this question. Probably for you. Elena is the intention to use brining as a proactive Road treatment strategy in lieu of not always but sometimes in lieu of rock salt.

▶ 49:09 Speaker 9: Elena you want I'm solution is made with the salt. So it's we added we add an environmentally friendly chemical called Magic. Mine is zero. It's what we use it now as well and treat the salt with it you spray it on the salt and then you use that salt. Ideally you use that to pre-treat the roads and it it causes the snow and the ice not to form to begin with and then it allows you to use less salt during and after the storm. So I just I just want

▶ 49:38 Ryan Williams: to clarify on this point. Are we talking about truck spraying brine liquid on Melrose streets absent of hard rock salt within the liquid I mean besides dissolved.

▶ 49:49 Speaker 9: With the truck still spread the salt the exact same way but the salt has been pretreated with the with the chemical to form a brine more of a solution. And so that's how it goes down. So it's One of the things that this Brian solution touts is that it reduces the bounce of the salt. So when you just spread salt on the roads, you've seen it bounce all around and then some of it doesn't end up on the road. It goes off to the sides one of the advantages of the brine. Is that it that it? Just reduces that bounce so the salt kind of stays where you put it and then it also melts the ice at a lower down to lower temperatures than the salt alone. So when you pre-treat you ideally avoid the need to put as much salt down if any if it's just a short-lived ice storm. Sometimes you just pretreat and then you're done.

▶ 50:40 Ryan Williams: When you say just pre-treat are you referring to just putting down liquid on the streets Brian liquid?

▶ 50:56 Speaker 7: Okay.

▶ 50:58 Ryan Williams: Is the capacity of the tank sufficient to? Move to a system or use a system where we're well, I guess first I should ask when communities are brining their streets like we see in Cambridge and Burlington has this Brian facility. Are they spraying? liquid brine solution pre-treating on the streets

▶ 51:24 Speaker 9: I would assume so I mean what what we've been doing for the last several years is considered industry standard for reduction of salt. We went through process of developing a whole sop. um, you can to be consistent with our stormwater nifties permit and Jamie might be able to answer a little bit better in terms of is the brine tank that we're designing sort of standard size for the volume of salt that we're putting in our shed to be able to you know to deliver the brine. I I would assume that it is but Jamie, I don't know if you have comments on that what you've done in other communities. Sure. Yeah, the the tank

▶ 52:02 Speaker 6: size is very similar to what other communities would use. So I think you're in line there and and I think like you're explaining Elaine. I've heard from other communities their preferences to try and brine the streets in advance when they have the Manpower just to prevent the ice from forming can't always do that. But yeah be preferred.

▶ 52:21 Ryan Williams: Are we are we brining currently?

▶ 52:25 Speaker 9: Yes.

▶ 52:26 Ryan Williams: We're running currently without years. But do we do is there Brian tank president in the current salt shed.

▶ 52:33 Speaker 9: There is okay, but we don't always use it in that manner. Sometimes we apply the chemical ourselves to the to the loads of salt as they're going out. The the tank inside is intended to treat the salt inside the shed, but we have been treating the salt once it's on the trucks. I'm not sure why we had moved to that system. I think it was a logistical issue with our existing salt shed. Um, but the intent would be to use this new brine system with the pumps and all to treat to treat the salt. Jamie do you have anything to add on on our existing system and

▶ 53:15 Speaker 6: just thought it was in rough shape and we met with the highway form and he indicated they've had you know troubles with it. It's near the end of its life and need to be replaced. So that's why we plugged in

▶ 53:26 Speaker 8: a new one for this project.

▶ 53:31 Speaker 9: Actually couldn't hear that.

▶ 53:33 Speaker 6: Oh, can you hear me now? Okay. I was just saying that when we met with the highway form and at the site initially you could see that the existing brine system was in bad shape and it was near the end of its life. So it was requested that we had a new system with the project.

▶ 53:53 Speaker 9: That we've been spraying directly on the trucks.

▶ 54:04 Speaker 6: Thank you counselor Carm chadie.

▶ 54:08 Manjula Karamcheti: Well first I want to say thank you so much for the presentation. It was really helpful to get the background of what happened in the past and the different options what's available the cost breakdowns all of that just so helpful to have that information, right? So I guess I will start by saying that I did my first one of my first tours that I went on was of the DPW facilities and being the curious person that I am I went to walk into the salt shed and I was pulled out quickly by the DPW director in the city engineer and I'm not being dramatic. They were truly afraid for me because I tried to go inside and they were worried. So what that makes me think of is not me but our DPW workers is are there safe working conditions? And to me it doesn't seem like the salt said it's safe give in I was just trying to walk in and I was Again, physically pulled out for fear that something would happen to me. So I definitely see the need for us to move forward and I think you've presented great a great case for for why the high gambrel is a good option for us. So I really what I want to ask you about is, you know, we've gotten some requests from constituents particularly those who care about the environment about like reducing our salt on the streets and are there alternatives to Salt my understanding is that the brine solution is that alternative but I don't know enough about this kind of thing. So,

▶ 55:46 Speaker 5: Are there other options to reduce salts or is I think Brian solution the one it's the one I've heard of but I don't know if there's more to it. I

▶ 55:55 Speaker 6: I would say that that's correct. The brine solution is the one and there's different types of Brine and sort of each Community kind of tankers with it and finds out which one works best for them. There's magnesium chloride calcium chloride straight salt brine making systems. I think this magic go is sort of on the lines of like a MAG chloride is what it sounds to me. That's a very popular Brine and as Elena described, you know, you use that and you spray the salt with it to basically boot, you know, boost the melting power of that salt. So you minimize the amount of salt that's being used that way and then it also gives it that kind of sticky texture to it. So it doesn't bounce off the road as much so you use less get more, you know salt in the areas that you need it and that's that's really The the primary method that towns are using everybody uses salt. You can't really I don't even heard of anybody getting rid of all their salt but by having the brine as a supplement, you can minimize the salt usage and you can also minimize or eliminate the need for sand. There's a lot some communities you sand. But the problem with sand is it's great you get that grit, but then you have to clean it up and the off season and then that has a little bit of contamination and that's regulated by the DP additional costs. So not using sand and using salt with the brine system is is definitely the way almost every Community goes. So

▶ 57:25 Manjula Karamcheti: just to summarize what I'm hearing is the current salt shed is unsafe, correct and we are exploring and utilizing environmentally friendly practices to the best of our ability to reduce our salt use.

▶ 57:39 Speaker 6: Absolutely. Yes. Thank you very much. Welcome. Are

▶ 57:42 Jen Grigoraitis: there any counselors with questions for the Time before I have a couple so that I'm gonna ask if you and then I'll turn it over. Um, so on the my first question is on timeline. I know that this is out to bid now and obviously would be pending financing but should that come through is it even realistic given the issues in the construction industry right now that this would be done this winter. I mean we have projects that were funded two years ago. That still aren't right direction,

▶ 58:10 Speaker 6: right? No, it's a great question and the answer is yes, you know, we have it's it's out to bid now. We're talking to the contractors that bid before we know a couple of these folks are very experienced with doing this type of salt shed. They're aware of this job. They were aware of it before and every we're getting positive feedback that they can meet the schedule we have in the bid specifications that construction schedule is about four and a half months roughly 140

▶ 58:39 Speaker 1: days from the notice the proceed so if that was today bring us to October 10th. Pits are gonna be open this Wednesday.

▶ 58:48 Speaker 8: Yeah.

▶ 58:49 Speaker 6: So everything we're hearing is at the materials are there and ready and

▶ 58:54 Jen Grigoraitis: that they can do this. Okay, and then continuing on this I've heard this too that the salt shed is unsafe. We can't have people in there. We pull people out now. I'm not an expert on the Massachusetts building code, but I know something can be declared structurally unsound so has if the salt if we're literally pulling people out of the building. I mean are we condemning it? Are we I guess I'm it's like it's so unsafe and yet I'm assuming we have DPW workers who are continuing to go in

▶ 59:24 Speaker 6: there, which is concerning to me, right? I guess Elena I'll speak and then maybe let you jump in a little bit but we you know, we did do our initial structural assessment and some repairs were made to stabilize things. And since Tyler was on site the other day, you know, it looks like there's been more damage done there has not been a formal, you know reassessment from a structural standpoint, but certainly everything we've seen and heard is that it is unsafe and I saw a yellow caution tape across the the entrance the other day and I don't know Lane if anything maybe to add to that if you would

▶ 1:00:01 Speaker 9: Yeah, the good news is that we're done with the salt season unless something crazy happens with the New England weather. So we shouldn't have to use salt again this year. And so we have blocked it off so that nobody should be going in there. And our hope is that it will be demolished before it needs to be used again.

▶ 1:00:18 Speaker 3: So if it's

▶ 1:00:20 Jen Grigoraitis: Not demolished before it's used again. Is it then going to be declared? Like I'm trying to understand if this doesn't go forward what actually happens like we've now we're publicly stating that a buildings unsafe. I'm assuming we're not allowing. employees in there and then where to like how what happens when Melrose has a snowstorm and there's no salt

▶ 1:00:41 Speaker 9: shed. I guess that's what I'm trying to understand. I would honestly advocate for demolishing this. Building no matter what because I think it's I find it so unsafe and I can't believe that we are allowing it to to even have continued as long as we have but it is it reached a really critical point actually counselor. Karenchetti was with me when I saw that support that is now completely off. It's it's Footing and so that's the point at which I said we should just block this off and not let anybody in we have not sought a formal Declaration of condemned from The Building Commissioner. We considered doing that last year, but we just weren't sure. we weren't presented with any sort of Plan B as to what happens if we condemn our salt shed, and we don't have plan in place to rebuild or to do something different so We didn't request for the Building Commissioner to come and give an opinion but based on that that support that's completely off the footing now, I would guess that that building is condemnable and and also the the pieces of metal flying off the roof. so you know, I I've been wanting to take that step for quite a while, but I just haven't known where that leaves us, and I've been a little hesitant to to do so, but That's my assumption. It would be condemned if we sought the opinion of the Building Commissioner.

▶ 1:02:13 Jen Grigoraitis: So just to so let's assume because we're we're all on here saying it's unsafe that we're not going to let employees in there this coming winter and there is no new salt shed. So what is what does that look? I mean, what is the plan B if this this fails like where does I just want the community in all of us to understand what the choices are? Yeah.

▶ 1:02:34 Speaker 9: That's been the challenge that we Face throughout this discussion because we brought this to the council for vote two times before which is why I wanted to bring the Consultants today in an informational capacity when we don't have a number we're not voting on an amount, but the discussion to date has always been surrounding funding order. and the counselors who have not voted in support of the funding order have just not wanted to pay the price tag that were proposing and wanted to find an alternative that is less costly and Personally, I think that we have exhausted all options of less costly. Alternatives the only less costly alternative is a fabric shed that as we saw cost less than 300,000 less and for something that we then have to replace the fabric every decade or so and we can't put solar panels on it and we can't move the canopy off the back to store some additional equipment. You know it it's just not practical to spend that kind of money on something. so much lesser than the full building, so I think that I think the council was hoping for an option that was half the price but still met the need. and that option really doesn't exist. So in my mind. Plan B. Is we demolished the shed and maybe we? I don't know. We just have salt in a pile for a year until we get approval but the prices are only going up on this building. So there I don't think there's ever going to be a cheaper option. It's only going to get more expensive so I guess I've also been waiting for someone else to tell me. What is Plan B for those who didn't support it the first time or the second time? And you know, I've been open to any and all suggestions but just have not heard a single viable suggestion aside from the DCR sharing option which sounded great except that they're not even in design and there is a phased project up there and I don't even know what phase the salt sheds going to be in so they're years out. Building anything new up there and what they have right now. Doesn't even accommodate us never mind us combined with Dot and DCR. So that was a great idea, but not not a viable one.

▶ 1:05:06 Jen Grigoraitis: Right. I think what I'm trying to ask is if we put a pile of salt at like are we putting a pile of salt down on the ground or are we driving to Stoneham driving to Malden setting sending trucks through every corner of Melrose with salt that we stored other communities. I I agree with you. Every decision has consequences. I'm trying to understand. Not what is an alternative to this which with all due respect. I definitely do not think is the purview of this body. Although we're all pretty great. I don't think we have that level of expertise but what happens if this doesn't pass what does next winter look like for this community?

▶ 1:05:42 Speaker 9: I would say our best option. If we want to have a new salt shed by Next by the winter season. As of right now I've arranged with Wakefield that they will take all our whole all of our salt that's left over in the shed to Wakefield in preparation for demoing our salt shed. If we reach next winter and we still don't have a salt shed. I would say our best option is you know begging our neighboring communities for a temporary partnership where we where we you know pay for our salt shipments to go to their shed and we go and get them from there, but I can tell you for sure that I can't imagine any other community is going to want any permanent solution where every Miller's DPW truck is driving through their Community every storm to get salt. Those types of things just don't go over. Well, I don't think we would want another Community driving through Melrose throughout storms. To our facility either but that's probably the best temporary option if we had to demolish but couldn't rebuild.

▶ 1:06:47 Jen Grigoraitis: Thank you. I appreciate that forecasting of what it would look like and now those are my questions councilor Williams for the second time. Thanks. I

▶ 1:06:54 Ryan Williams: want to Elaine is talking a lot about the council. And of course there's a new Council there's a couple of new people on here. And so I wasn't a part of these discussions and to be clear. My concern is not that this all shed is too expensive my concern if you could call it a concern, I think the building should be condemned right now. It's totally unsafe to work and I wouldn't work in it. I'm and I wouldn't let any of the people on my crew work in it. I mean, it's literally falling apart one strong win could blow sheet metal off and send it into the pool. That's a couple of you know, Parcels down the street full of kids. Um, the line of questioning I have are on brine is because I'm very interested in the flexibility of this community to adapt to the changing Dynamic that we're putting down on these roads with bike Lanes with more sidewalks and with our capacity to pretreat some of this not with a brind rock salt solution, but with a liquid brine solution, which is what we pilot what we've seen piloted in other cities where you take a truck you put a liquid tank on the back. It's full of salt water and you drive through the streets and you just liquid apply this stuff like a Mist down on the street to reduce to really reduce the use of salt. We're talking 75% because you know, you can pre-treat and brine the rock salt. But as soon as you put it in that truck, it's up to the operator to decide how much salt to put down. And so I'm skeptical of suggestions that we can reduce salt being thrown out on the streets only because at the end of the day, it's up to who pulls the shoot and how much comes out the other end. I'd be interested in seeing like how many Tons of salt we purchased each year and what the forecast is and whether we see that going down year after year as a part of follow-up on this and I would like to know maybe this is my only actual question whether or not the tank would be compatible with any kind of output system that would allow you to couple a hose up to it on the outside and fill up a tank on a pilot project somewhere down the road. The water tank, that's inside. I mean, is it just a big vat that mixes and then you shoveled salt out of it or does it have outputs?

▶ 1:09:01 Speaker 1: Yeah, won't you the system were proposing does have the capability of filling up saddle tanks

▶ 1:09:08 Ryan Williams: on would you call it saddle tank? Yeah, okay.

▶ 1:09:10 Speaker 1: So things will hold the Brian on the back of the tank trucks but also has a capability of spraying down the cell pile and pre-treating it like Elena was talking about it's flexible and as the opportunity to do it either way

▶ 1:09:25 Ryan Williams: as designed for this project. Excellent. Okay. Thanks very much. I appreciate it. Nothing more.

▶ 1:09:33 Mark Garipay: 's on the on the fabric option

▶ 1:09:39 Mark Garipay: if we go with the fabric option, I mean, well, it doesn't sound like we're going because it's already out the bit but with the fabric option. Talking to the DCR. They built a number of them over the last few number years and they've done block foundations and then did a solid wall inside. By doing that. You wouldn't have to go down and pour a foundation could be used the same pad, correct?

▶ 1:10:06 Speaker 6: Correct. They would go down maybe six to 12 inches roughly with the block wall Foundation. Okay?

▶ 1:10:13 Speaker 8: Yeah, so

▶ 1:10:15 Mark Garipay: so with that being said if we don't have to do that, we know that soil is contaminated right now, right? We also know that whole street. was an automotive dealership back in the day. Mm-hmm. So I guess my question is if we clean that portion of that yard up. Mm-hmm. Could we be cleaning it up again in 10 years with the way things flow? Like if it's contaminated then property next door is contaminated. It's right on the property line. Could that flow back into our property? And we're going to be cleaning it up again down

▶ 1:10:47 Speaker 6: the road. That's something that our environmental engineer will take a look at he hasn't said that to be the case based on the data that we have so far, you know, that's he's very familiar with like a down gradient property status. So he did right now, he does not believe there's contamination coming from another site onto this site, but that's certainly something that will look at closely during construction because during construction we're gonna you know, open up the ground for the foundations and I'll add the Irish Gambrell does have I'll call it. It's a minimal minimally invasive Foundation. It's not like one giant spread for that raps around. They're like individual strip footings that are constructed so it's not that much so, but we'll certainly In that area up, they'll take a close. Look at that take environmental samples and we'll have them look specifically at your concern to make sure there isn't, you know from another property.

▶ 1:11:44 Mark Garipay: Yeah, so not saying the other property see if it's coming from the The west side of the property. Mm-hmm going towards the Fell's way. It slopes that way right probably slopes that way towards the pond. Is it safe to say or is it could we assume that any contamination up there would end up down the other end of our property.

▶ 1:12:03 Speaker 6: I guess it depends. I mean we have to take a look at the contamination that area but yeah in speaking

▶ 1:12:08 Speaker 1: with our LSP part of what we have to do next is a investigation to define the limits of the contamination. And as of now we don't know but we have to take those steps. Those are Upcoming steps that we're going to take to help answer that

▶ 1:12:25 Mark Garipay: question for you. Yeah. Well, we're only taking those steps based on the high Ox Gambrell which is

▶ 1:12:30 Speaker 1: out the bid that those steps have to happen whether or not a salt shed goes there or not.

▶ 1:12:34 Mark Garipay: So if we went with a fabric then we definitely wouldn't need to spend $130,000 that is in here to clean that soil up right now, right? So my favorite is that we're spending it now, we're going to spend it again in 10 years.

▶ 1:12:48 Speaker 1: So I know you're getting at the fabric doesn't have the foundation. So you have Think there's less there is less soil removal boat. The majority of the soil generated on site is when you repave and it's the 12 inches that you need to remove and replace whereas the foundations of the higher ground Barrel like Jamie said our pretty efficient and the amount of volume generated from those is a smaller this pretty small percentage in if you look at the cost estimate between high arch cambrell and the fabric you'll see the cost for soil disposals still pretty significant, but it is less than the high arch Cambro so

▶ 1:13:31 Speaker 1: I don't know if the end. it's just me speaking based on my understanding of from our LSP is that the end goal isn't necessary to clean it all up, but potentially ending with a aul or

▶ 1:13:46 Speaker 6: Right. It's an activity in use limitation. So so they're gonna do a regardless of higher scambrel or fabric. We're gonna do a phase one environmental assessment per the depth standards and they'll look at concerns related to contamination coming from off property and we'll confirm that that won't be an issue for you. And then the plan is to just remove the amount of soil that's necessary to get you in a compliance with the depth standards. And so we anticipate that there'll be residual contamination left behind but it won't be a health risk or safety risk to anybody will be capped with pavement or soil cap. And then it will be registered with the dep with they call it an activity and use limitation. So honestly like these they'll do the assessment. I don't think you need to be concerned that it's gonna come back 10 years from now, they'll they'll figure out if there's anything coming from Json property and and whether you have the fabric of the high arch, I think you'll be protected from that contingency.

▶ 1:14:53 Speaker 4: So

▶ 1:14:55 Speaker 9: I'm just

▶ 1:14:57 Mark Garipay: struggling with a fabric building being this amount this amount of money right when you know, it doesn't sound like this as much prep work in construction costs based on right the 270,000 estimate we've got right now last may you gave us to estimates Like this the gambrel the fabric and then this time we just got a cost of a fabric of 270. Is there any way to try to take that cost and put it into something like this so we can take a Take a look at it and decide for what? I mean.

▶ 1:15:34 Speaker 1: I don't know the 279. I think

▶ 1:15:37 Jen Grigoraitis: I I need to interrupt just because I was looking at that clock which is slow. It's 8:15, and we actually need to gavel into Finance in order to be. In compliance. So I apologize. We're going to have to recess out of this meeting open another meeting and then come back. Okay. So motion to is there can I entertain a motion to recess motion recess second motion about Teresa has made by Vice chairman. We really seconded by counselor Eccles all in favor. I thank you. We'll be recessed and then we'll come back to this.