Appropriations & Oversight Committee — 2018-11-19
Attendance
Manisha Bewtra ; Robert A. Boisselle ; Scott M. Forbes ; Jennifer L. Lemmerman ; Kate Lipper-Garabedian ; Shawn M. MacMaster ; Monica C. Medeiros ; Peter D. Mortimer ; John N. Tramontozzi ; Francis X. Wright Jr. ; Michael P. Zwirko
Agenda
Minutes
CITY OF MELROSE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE CALENDAR● NOVEMBER 19, 2018 Aldermanic Chamber, Melrose City Hall Committee Meeting 7:30 PM 562 Main Street, Melrose, MA 02176 The public should take notice that the Melrose Board of Aldermen may, on certain occasions, have a quorum in attendance due to standing committees of the Board of Aldermen consisting of both voting and non-voting members. Members attending this duly posted meeting are participating and deliberating only in conjunction with the business of the standing committee. Attendee Name Title Status Arrived Jennifer L. Lemmerman Chair Present Scott M. Forbes Vice Chair Present Peter D. Mortimer Ward 6 Alderman Present Robert A. Boisselle Ward 4 Alderman Present John N. Tramontozzi Voting Member Present Francis X. Wright Jr. Ward 3 Alderman Present Monica C. Medeiros Alderman at Large Present Michael P. Zwirko President/ Ex-officio Member Present Manisha Bewtra Alderman at Large Present Kate Lipper-Garabedian Alderman at Large Present Shawn M. MacMaster Ward 5 Alderman Present
ORDER-2019-9 Amending Revised Ordinances Amending Melrose Revised Ordinances, Chapter 177-12: Snow and ice removal as set forth herein. Recommend as Amended Board of Aldermen City of Melrose Page 1 Updated 12/3/2018 9:08 AM
Transcript
▶ 0:00 Jennifer L. Lemmerman: Good evening. The hour being 7 30 on November 19, 2018. I call to order the appropriations committee of the City of Melrose Board of Aldermen. I am the Chair Alderman Lemmerman. I'm joined this evening by Vice Chair Alderman Forbes as well as committee members Alderman Mortimer, Alderman Boisselle, Alderman Tramontozzi, Alderman Wright, Alderman Medeiros, Alderman Zwirko, President Zwirko, excuse me, Alderman Bewtra, Alderman Lipper-Garabedian, and Alderman McMaster. Motion to open the floor for public participation. Second. We have a motion to open the floor for for a public comment made by President Search, seconded by Alderman, is that Mortimer? Mortimer, Peter Mortimer, yeah. All in favor of opening the floor for public participation?
▶ 0:44 Any opposed? This is the portion of our meeting where any member of the public may come forward to speak on the one item on our agenda for the Appropriations Committee meeting this evening, that is the snow removal order. We welcome anyone who would like to come forward and speak. Good evening. Good evening. so I'm leash Langer I've lived in Ward 1 on Orris Street for about 18 years and I have significant concerns about the proposed sidewalk clearing ordinance at least as it's been proposed and I'd like to address some of them maybe propose some changes to it my house does have sidewalks and when it snows I clear my sidewalk along with my driveway clear my neighbors if they haven't gotten to
▶ 1:56 there as they clear mine when it happens to be noticed but I I'd like to address some concerns and a quick side note these sidewalks are installed and maintained by the city if they break if Thorp cracks and so on but the there seems to be an assumption that residents should be the one who clear them when Thorp snow and to some extent it seems like it's sort of a hidden tax by the city and so on but for people live by sidewalks but let's put that aside clear Clear sidewalks are obviously a good thing, and to suggest, as I've heard even in this chamber, that being against the ordinance is being against clear sidewalks, I think is disingenuous and intentionally divisive and a little bit insulting.
▶ 2:43 But I think we need to work together to find, or you all need to work together on our behalf to find sort of common ground, alternative approaches to achieve the goal. I think when we look for other solutions, we can look at our neighboring communities. Our town to the north, our border to the north is Wakefield. They have an ordinance with no fines. To the east and west, Stoneham and Saugus have no such ordinance at all. I don't think Melrose has taken steps to encourage shoveling and to understand why some people regularly seem not to. I know Thorp a list on the mayor's blog, but there hasn't been the outreach to people. People don't always look at the blog. I know at a prior meeting, DPW Director Shanna
▶ 3:34 has indicated Thorp been no direct outreach at all to residents as we do with recycling for door knockers or letters in the mail and so on. And he said because Thorp no such ordinance. But seems to me we could have outreach without an ordinance. They do other things without an ordinance. and certainly we could have it without fines. We might come to find that the people who don't repeatedly clear their sidewalks have other issues, maybe they're non-owner residents, someone's renting the house to them, or they have physical or financial issues, and we should be aware of that. Ultimately, I think if we do have an ordinance, and I'm sort of opposed to an ordinance, but if we do have an ordinance for single
▶ 4:15 and two-family resident properties owned or occupied, it should be without fines. I've heard concern and complaints from some residents either here or online in various community discussions, Facebook and so on, about issues getting to public transit and so on. A lot of these seem to be in mixed-use areas, commercial areas, or people trying to get to schools, or the accumulation of snow in corners from plowing, and clearly people should be able access public transit and and people should be kids should be get able to get to schools that's critically important but a lot of those things should be areas that are taken up by DPW and they are I know but maybe that should be expanded and the area of the question about piles and the corners
▶ 5:10 from plowing and so on director Shana said that the DPW attempts to come back and clear those within three or four days after a snowstorm though we know that they're not required to do so because Thorp not an ordinance but they haven't reached out to people because Thorp not an audience but he cleans up within three or four days but the public is being asked to clear their sidewalks within 12 hours so Thorp a imbalance there as well and sometimes these are very big storms where businesses are closed and schools are closed for an extended period of time winter is a fact of life in New England we all have to prepare for it and deal with it walking on sidewalks or in parts town where Thorp not sidewalks in the streets requires pedestrians to have appropriate apparel
▶ 5:49 boots with good traction for safety and an ordinance should assume that people are going to be appropriately outfitted bicycles are never appropriate on the sidewalk and new england sidewalks in the winter are probably not good jogging tracks either the ordinance states that residents should clear all snow uses the word all and does that mean down to the bare pavement It's not practical, doesn't recognize the realities of the season with melting and refreezing. If we assume people have the appropriate gear, does this apply then to, or should it apply to all types of precipitation, all amounts of precipitation, an inch, two inches of dusting? People walk through that all the time. And so, aren't we really concerned about the bigger storms that make the sidewalks
▶ 6:44 unpassable where we cancel school probably and for then kids to be able to get to school once schools are back open notably in Everett they only require residents to clear their sidewalks when Thorp a declared snow emergency so that's another thing to consider another unintended consequence here if you say I have to clear all snow you went using a lot more ice melt and things that are bad for the environment I with my snow plow you know can get the sidewalk very passable but if it has to be all snow down to the pavement and so I use a lot of chemical that's not good for anybody most people do clear their sidewalks we heard from the DPW that one to two percent of people don't and I assume that they're doing it on their own or shoveling or a snowblower rather than a
▶ 7:29 paid-for-service however if we have fines when they can't get to it it creates a complex situation what if someone who is a regular sidewalk clearer is away for the weekend and it snows on Saturday or they're away for a week perhaps on vacation perhaps it's during a school holiday and it snows unexpectedly you don't have neighbors who are gonna cover you maybe they're away maybe they don't like you whatever it is and fines start to accumulate because the ordinance isn't clear what happens for residents for businesses it's daily for for residents it doesn't quite say whether it's daily or not so you come back from vacation you have a $500 fine and do these fines come in the mail how do you know you've started to be fine and things like that the
▶ 8:11 ordinance shouldn't assume that people will be able to be covered by their neighbors and and so on where someone's not on vacation but they're away on business what if they're ill they have a respiratory infection or high fever it would be against their health to go out and shovel at that time but they have 12 hours to do so what if they are in the hospital visiting someone who's getting critical medical care they're in a hospital themselves because they had a heart attack from shoveling the previous storm you know is there any appeals process is there any due process at all that's not covered here with a fine that all becomes a critical question you know how quickly are people notified as I
▶ 8:46 said before I've heard it suggested that fines could be set to kick in like it's a second year but that's sort of the same problem I have the same objections there I would suggest that if you have an ordinance do it without fines then could always amend it later on if it needs to be updated to say that we should have fine some of the aldermen have suggested trust us that'll be it um you know enforced well to suggest it'll be enforced unfairly is to think the worst of city employees i would say the same thing in reverse if you're saying these people aren't shoveling one to two percent you're thinking the worst of them maybe they have a reason that they couldn't do it at that time um and uh it's been suggested that
▶ 9:24 well it will be enforced gently like ordinances for loud music and so on but you can decide when you play your loud music and you can plan for that you can't plan for a snowstorm you might have something else that's gone on and or when you're ill or when you're away or whatever it is and to have fines associated with that as I said becomes difficult so with all that said I have a few suggestions amendments I'd like to propose that you can pick up or not or whatever changes and first I'd like to suggest that in section C regarding the residential zone land that separated out the residential area as to a new section D and everything else moves down in a letter in that new residential section I'd like to secondly suggest that the word all be removed and the phrase
▶ 10:20 instead of all be added allowing reasonable passage by pedestrians using weather condition appropriate apparel such that it reads the owner or occupant of any residentially zoned land abutting a sidewalk in the city shall cause snow and ice to be removed from said sidewalk allowing reasonable passage by pedestrians using weather condition appropriate apparel this recognizes that you know it doesn't have to be down to bare pavement and instead it's just a safety issue for people to walk safely additionally in that section where the question came up about when should the 12-hour period start and so it says right now have come upon the sidewalk and I'd suggest removing that and say has ceased to fall upon the sidewalk so that we know that it's like the
▶ 11:15 commercial ordinance that it's when the storm ends you don't have 12 hours I have to be out there at 3 a.m. shoveling or whatever it is immediately thereafter I also suggest inserting an amount of snow that we're talking about so how so that says has ceased to fall upon the sidewalk as the result of a storm causing three or more inches to have fallen on the sidewalk free wasn't arbitrary number that I picked but something in recognition of the fact that people can walk through some snow further I think there should be recognition of the chief concern is is kids getting to school safely on the sidewalk and people travel when it's weekends and vacation and so on so I'd like to suggest additionally after that it says and remain there during them
▶ 12:10 during days that Melrose public schools are in session so in other words not the storm that happens on the weekend and you can clear it up by Monday morning not if it's school canceled it's that bad a storm not if it's school vacation and lastly I suggest that we don't have fines and so in the section having to do with fines to remove the word first in its two occurrences so the paragraph discusses your first infraction be a warning and then after your first fines if you remove those two words first the effect is that the penalty would for resident owner-occupied residences only be a warning all the time so remove the word first in two occurrences regarding only occupied one and two family properties start starting with the text setting forth the penalty therefore you
▶ 13:12 You know, the effect, as I said, would be that it's a warning all the time rather than a fine if you just remove the word first that's there on two occurrences. Those are my comments. As I suggested, I think other approaches to go after the problem outreach, which we haven't had. Finding out why people, certain people, a few number of people are not shoveling. But if we need an ordinance to do that, I strongly suggest we do it without a fine the way Wakefield does and Linfield does. you know but again Saugus and Stoneham don't have any ordinance at all neither does Redding North Reading and so many others thank you for your time thank you sir there are additional members of the public wishing to speak on this order
▶ 13:57 Ryan Williams: hello everyone first I'd like to start by saying I was not told there would be snow in New England when I moved here here we are my name is Ryan Williams I'm a member of the pedestrian and cyclist advocacy committee I'm a Melrose resident live on Malvern Street I brought a couple of information points to be shared with the committee with regards to the analysis of snow removal that was performed by the engineering department I think the engineering department did a amazing job of producing that data but it is surely challenging to examine 8400 or some parcels in the city of Melrose with frequency and you know within a certain prescribed time period after snow falls i noticed that within engineering zone analysis of the snowfall that they found between two and four percent of
▶ 15:03 Ryan Williams: properties that didn't clear their snow either uh in 2016 there were two storms measured so that was either from one storm for four percent um or in 2018 there was only one storm measured and they found two percent and um with regard to the specific sites that were listed the parcels that were listed there were just a few omissions and i thought it might be illustrative to the the board as to understanding that it's not really possible for the engineering department or dpw to know exactly how many parcels are being unshovelled it's a broader question for the community at large so i have um about five or six sites i reached out to the members of the committee and i asked them for their input we had a couple of interesting parcels noted one was the
▶ 15:56 Ryan Williams: the church on Upham Street there we go the Melrose Church of Christ that was a parcel that was listed as by some community members as being kind of a chronic non shoveler of the sidewalks it's a nonprofit and I think that when community members are faced with these problem properties and I don't mean to disparage the Church of Christ they have limited resources they probably don't have somebody there all the time residents don't always know where to go who to talk to whose responsibility it is and so you get properties like the Church of Christ that's not on the list there were complaints about the sidewalk of West Wyoming opposite Lincoln School that's also not listed on the parcel list as properties that missed shoveling Cottage Street perpendicular to Wyoming
▶ 16:44 Ryan Williams: which is on the list and it's on there as a both years having problems with not shoveling so that is a problem property and we're all familiar that that's a large multi-unit property Upham Street from Coolidge Park to Main Street which includes Coolidge Park itself and then the First Baptist Church I think of Melrose and teachable moments where both my kids go to school so I'm familiar with that sidewalk people gave general feedback that there were always a few parcels on Main Street and Lebanon Street that were unshoveled after storms but on the analysis there are no parcels on Main Street that are shown unshoveled so either Thorp a few gaps in the data or the folks on Main Street have shoveled their sidewalk every day for every storm for for two or three years
▶ 17:25 Ryan Williams: totally possible I shovel my sidewalk almost all the time and then of course as mentioned by the previous commenter one of the largest problems that the city has is the issue of DPW plowing over corners and while I do think that the Board of Aldermen should consider better ways to help DPW enforce the need to keep sidewalks and crosswalks clear I think also that having more responsibility for clearing sidewalks generally in the city is going to provide the right atmosphere in the right environment for not only the residents but also the city to take personal responsibility to keep those those areas clear and just as an example of some of the areas that were also by the way not listed on the parcel sheet as being cleared I have a couple of
▶ 18:13 Ryan Williams: photos of snow drifts blocking specific crosswalks these are all up and down Main Street you'll recognize them as being approximately from Linfels and Main Street to the senior housing complex on the west side of Main Street just north of the Whole Foods parking lot these are not snow drifts that occurred all at once from one snowstorm and they are packed with ice the issue of a few parcels as you can see in that image it's not even a full parcel it's really just one crosswalk being covered with ice and snow and having no remedy as a resident to address that is more than just wearing snow appropriate footwear as I wear pretty much all the time people with limited mobility and seniors often avoid these kind of situations they obviously can't climb a
▶ 19:00 Ryan Williams: four-foot hill of snow but they will avoid even an inch of ice and put themselves in harm's way by walking in the street instead and the same is true for people pushing strollers and you might have noticed we have a few of those in Melrose these days and anybody with any kind of an impairment that might that might generate fear from from a slip and a fall as my upstairs neighbor for instance fell on an icy sidewalk and broke his leg right in front of our next-door neighbor's house so all that being said I think that the ordinance is step in the right direction I think that it's important to start somewhere I think that the fines are necessary I understand that the fines are intended to be a kind of three strikes or two strikes program where you
▶ 19:43 Ryan Williams: don't necessarily levy a fine on every homeowner every time but it is important to have some kind of remedy for problem properties because otherwise with the limitations that we're facing right now in the city budget Thorp not really a lot of places for residents to go to seek relief on these on these issues and as a final note an educational point I will share my understanding that it doesn't matter whether or not the city or the homeowner is listed in the ordinance as being responsible for snow clear if a person slips and falls on sidewalk it's my understanding that the homeowner is responsible for that injury and can be brought to court so thank you thank you good evening hello how are you i'm well thank you my name
▶ 20:53 is ted cummings i live at 93 howard street here in malrose and uh some of the things i'm going to go over are going to be repetitive but so i'll apologize for that in advance and i've also got some things if i could just pass out to each of the members i could just pass each one of those little packets around i also brought a list of 34 names of people just that i know that are opposed to the ordinance for varying reasons their names and addresses are on the sheet there along with a a letter to the board and the the reasons why uh vary too much to list it down so we just basically wrote down that those people including myself are opposed to it entirely we don't want it changed amended the language we're against it entirely and i'll explain that why
▶ 21:44 as the gentleman that started tonight said anyone who's opposed to this nobody's opposed to having the sidewalks cleared i think what we're opposed to is being told that we have to do it or we're going to pay a fine to me personally that seems a little heavy-handed to deal with it in that way, although it would be a nice world if everybody got out and shoveled and it was wonderful and we didn't have any blocked sidewalks and nobody slipped and fell and everything was just convenient and that was the way life was and I'd like to go live in that world. But that world does not exist. So we have to live in the world that we do live in. Just because it's a good idea for people to shovel their sidewalks does not mean that it's a good
▶ 22:27 idea to have a law to make people do it the two things have nothing to do with each other i can i can came up with i won't bore you with it tonight but i can think of 10 things that my neighbors do and people do around town and this and that that i think we should have a rule for that but i don't want to live in that type of world i also don't want to live in a city where the neighbors are going to start calling the cops on each other because someone didn't shovel the sidewalk i don't want to live there it's never been like that here and i don't want to live in a city like that it's divisive it doesn't do anything to bring the community together and so this whole way this whole idea of forcing it on people is exactly what
▶ 23:07 you're going to be doing you're going to be relying on people to call the police or neighbors that they don't get along with to find out who isn't shoveling the sidewalks that's what this is that's where this is going to go i think just even coming up with the idea when i thought about it i've been thinking about it for a couple of weeks you by even proposing the idea you're kind of coming up you're coming at it from a point of view that you drive down the street and you see a sidewalk isn't shoveled you go the guy that lives there must be a real jerk like that's where you're starting from we need a law for that Thorp no that's the only place you could be coming from there are literally dozens or maybe hundreds of reasons why on that particular day that
▶ 23:48 sidewalk isn't clear sometimes they get shoveled sometimes they don't and those legitimate reasons why it doesn't get shoveled are going to become the excuses of why it didn't get shoveled when you try to give somebody a ticket it's going to be an excuse and it's going to be a legitimate excuse or it's going to be made up excuse that you can't argue about you know my knees hurt today what are you going to say to that person uh too bad you're not you're not going to write him a ticket that's what you're going to do my personal own personal reasons why i'm opposed to it one is going to be way too expensive to even implement we are i heard them talking about a study uh that was done on the homes that the dpw did that i wasn't even aware of i'm sure that cost something so we're already it
▶ 24:38 already cost something to do that if that cost a few thousand dollars that's a few thousand dollars we could have paid to have shovels snow sidewalk shoveled um also i don't think myself personally i'm a small government guy i don't think any of you have a right morally or ethically or i don't even know legally i'm not a lawyer to compel me to do anything to tell me i got to get up off my couch monday morning and go do something i'm a little uncomfortable with that you can tell me what i can't do that's different you can tell me i can't shovel my driveway into the sidewalk you can tell me i can't do that because that makes sense right that's that's now i'm creating a hazard for somebody else you can tell me i can't burn my leaves because i might burn my
▶ 25:25 neighbor's house down doing so doing so so not being able to telling me what i can't do and telling me what i have to do are two entirely different things and i'm not comfortable with the government telling me i have to do anything that's my own personal view secondly i've got a bad back and it's chronic i could get out of this chair tonight and it could go boingo bango and i would hobble my way to the car and i'll be flat on my back for the next three or four days i will not go to work and i'll be out until my back comes back and i can get up and walk again and i'm sure i'm not the only one so if that happens on the day that it snows my sidewalk's not getting shoveled i'm just telling you now it's not getting done and probably my driveway isn't either
▶ 26:11 Sometimes it takes me a couple days to get the driveway done. I shovel a little bit, get my car out, come back from work, shovel a little bit more, get done with that, make my way around to the sidewalk and my front steps. Sometimes it takes a couple of days. You all live here, you know. Every storm isn't six inches and it's fluffy, and you get to run around there and do it before you go to work. We have to be realistic about this and where we live and what the circumstances are. This isn't a nice, neat thing where six inches snows every time at three and we know it's coming and we could prepare for it and everyone did you know Thorp way too many variables that you could ever prepare to have such an ordinance even just listening to the
▶ 26:49 two gentlemen that spoke before me i'm sitting there listening going i can't believe how complicated this is going to be and all of these complications we're going to lay at the feet of the police department individual police officers who have to think about this jesus was this the church of christ i'm not sure if i was supposed to say anything to this person i don't remember but i mean that's the road we're going down also not shoveling the sidewalk is not the same thing we have ordinance against having loud parties loud music doing construction before a certain hour we already have ordinance for those things this is not the same thing i'm not the one creating the hazard it's nature it's god whoever did it i'm not the one creating it i don't have
▶ 27:36 any excuse for being a loud ignorant neighbor at one in the morning playing concert music and keeping everybody awake and Thorp no legitimate excuse for that so did the police show up yeah can you get a ticket for that yeah Thorp no legitimate excuse for starting construction work with jackhammers and banging roofing and everything else at six o'clock in the morning and disturbing the neighbors Thorp no legitimate excuse for that that's why we have an ordinance for those types of things and everybody agrees on it everybody doesn't agree on this i think just as a general a body of government we should be passing ordinances and laws and things i know it's just you know majority rules but it ought to be on something that most of the people in
▶ 28:15 the community agree about most 60 70 percent ought to think it's a good idea i think that's my own personal opinion this also isn't the same thing as speeding this isn't the same thing as parking my car too many too far away from the curb there are ordinances ordinances for that But the ordinance says I can't park more than 18 inches from the curb. So when a police officer comes by or the traffic enforcement officer walks down Main Street checking for violations and parking and you've been there too long, they know it's 18 inches. It doesn't say, this proposal is very vague. It says it has to be shoveled wide enough for two people to pass by. Well, which two people? Two skinny people? I don't know the answer to that.
▶ 29:05 so you're opening up a place where the officer is going to try to enforce a ticket and you're going to have a pissing contest over due to two people meet can two people pass by or not so how do you do that it would have to be a number like the building code i'm a builder i have to build a set of stairs 36 inches clear opening not 35 not 35 and a half and not 35 and seven eights they got to be 36 you know why because two people can pass by on the 36 inch set of stairs the building inspector comes out and says he doesn't come out and say oh that looks too narrow i don't think two people can go by and i go well no i think two people can pass by no he gets a tape measure and says it's only 35 and a half it doesn't meet the code it's not within it doesn't
▶ 29:53 meet the code it's wrong it's a violation we this is just too arbitrary it's way too arbitrary and not and again we're laying it at the feet of a police officer to do all of this work this conversation that i'm having with you is the conversation we're going to have with the cop at my door trying to write me a ticket that's why i'm kind of saying it the way i'm saying it give you the real life scenario this is what the police are going to do they're going to come to my door and i'm going to say no i think two people can get by he's going to say well two people can't get by well let's go down and try you go you you go let me get my uh skinny brother-in-law i mean it's absurd it really is Thorp just Thorp way more thing better things they ought
▶ 30:38 to be doing with that because of some of these reasons it's it's going to be enforced unfairly and it's going to be completely arbitrary and we're going to be leaving it up to the police to decide whether or not you have a good enough excuse and that's not how the law is supposed to work either everybody that didn't shovel a sidewalk gets a ticket or nobody gets a ticket it's not the guy that his neighbor called the cops on him he gets a ticket and someone else who didn't get caught doesn't get a ticket that's not the way it should work we're going to have an ordinance then everybody who doesn't shovel a sidewalk has to get a ticket which means somebody has to go out and check all the sidewalks and again i'm assuming that's going to be laid at
▶ 31:20 the feet of the police department and i don't want to be the one trapped in my car in a rollover accident on a snowy road and the police are up on swains pond road checking driveways and checking sidewalks so it's either you have to enforce it equally or don't enforce it at all and then i have i have uh some questions about this entire thing who is going to get the ticket is it going to be the homeowner or is it going to be the resident has that been determined and and i don't even know the answer to this how do the police determine who lives in a house do they know that when they pull up to your house do they know who lives there and who the owner is or do the police have to go on a goose chase now and find out who the property owner is and uh we have to issue them
▶ 32:10 the ticket or if we're just going to give it to the resident the person that sits out okay so we give it to the resident now you knock on the door it's a two-family house who gets the ticket of a two-family upstairs or downstairs i have a friend of mine when i talked to her about the first thing she told me was i already fight with my upstairs neighbor about shoveling the driveway they won't even do the driveway i do the driveway i can just imagine asking them telling them we have to do the sidewalks now so i don't know are we going to write two tickets are we going to split it 12 50 each what are we going to do some people don't have sidewalks so as part of the ordinance maybe we should add the languages and if you don't have a sidewalk you have to go shovel someone
▶ 32:55 else's sidewalk because that's the only thing that would be fair that would be fair if you're going to wheel her out one side of the street has a sidewalk the other one doesn't so this guy's sitting over here having his coffee how you doing joe oh i'm kind of killing myself the cops are going to be here at noon you know that's the real life scenario what we're asking the residents of the city to do and now the police going to come to my door or go to someone's door to write a ticket I don't know how this is going to work I'm assuming they're going to pull over And they're going to come to the door and knock on the door And write me a ticket just as if I got pulled over So now you come to my door
▶ 33:33 Or someone's door And a woman answers the door She's nine months pregnant And my husband's away on a trip I'm waiting for the plow guy to come Are they going to write her a ticket I'm going to tell you right now They're not going to write her a ticket Now you get on the street And the guy doesn't have as good of a story He gets the ticket It's not fair Mr. Cummings, I'm sorry to interrupt you. I just wanted to let you know, so our rules allow for 10 minutes and we've gone over, but you can finish up, but I just wanted to let you know. I'll go quickly. I wasn't aware of that, I'm sorry. But I'm also representing 34 other people who asked me to come here and speak for them, so maybe I can get a little bit of leeway.
▶ 34:15 I think the impact on the police department itself is going to be negative. I think it would be demoralizing to spend four years in the Marine Corps and get out and become a police officer and ask to go up and give Mrs. Jones a ticket because she didn't shovel her sidewalk fast enough. I don't think that's a very good thing to do. They went to college to become law enforcement professionals, not run around checking to see if sidewalks have been shoveled or not. It also takes their attention away from accidents, crime, other things that are going on during the storms. People call in the police department that actually need the police. when Thorp something going on and they're going to be busy doing other
▶ 34:53 things the other thing would be the cost we're gonna have to take all this citation booklets that they have now we're gonna have to throw them all out we have to redesign new ones I don't know how that process happens but someone must have to design it somebody here I don't know somebody has to approve it we have to train the offices how to reuse the new books It's going to cost, it has to cost, I'm guessing, tens of thousands of dollars to redo all of those books. We're going to have to have training. We're going to have to train the police officers. We're going to have to have record keeping, because if you're going to write me a warning and you're going to write warnings, you're going to have to keep those records somewhere.
▶ 35:30 They're going to have to be filed away. If I'm going to be a habitual offender, which we're going to have to define what that means, if I'm a habitual offender, you better keep the records, because if you write me a ticket at the end of the winter, I'm going to want to know how many times I was, you know, and gonna have to have an appeals process so we're gonna have to have an office like the parking Commissioner someone's gonna have to man that that's gonna cost money it's gonna cost tens of thousands of dollars I just have two more things and then I'll be done I'll be quick thank you very quick when we were here for the meeting over sanctuary cities some of the same people sitting in this room
▶ 36:06 said the police don't have the time or the resources or the money to be enforcing immigration laws that was what I heard them saying here so unless suddenly Thorp money in the budget to be doing this I'm assuming they still don't have the money for doing less important things and last I have free ideas if you'd like some free ideas the mayor can put out a robocall on the robocall system that they do to all the residents every morning and ask and plead and beg please go out and shovel your sidewalks that doesn't cost anything this we have students that are looking for community service hours we can very easily get that list of people that will shovel give it to the DPW and we can have a phone number to call to say hey I can't shovel my sidewalk my
▶ 36:49 back hurts can you send somebody up that wouldn't cost anything I also gave you a copy of a doorknob knocker that I designed the last page there I can get 1500 of those printed on this to print for 175 you could put them in the dpw workers trucks if they see a driveway a sidewalk or a building that's a problem they could get out they could hang in the door ask them nicely you don't even have to ask them they can hang it on the door you see what it says on there with the phone number and uh i'll even pay for them and i'll donate them to the city if you don't pass the ordinance thank you mr cummings that is all thank you very much thank you motion for a recess a motion for a recess yes for the purposes of
▶ 41:18 Shawn M. MacMaster: and to meet with a government official. So I had the pleasure of speaking with them earlier this evening to talk about the rule of law, to talk about the role of the Board of Aldermen, and to put into context a local law. So they are here to learn about the snow ordinance. They shared their views with me. They're a group of very bright young men. I think the future of Melrose. So I was pleased to interact with them and get a chance to hear their input they are joined by assistant club master Lloyd Graves the third who's a ward 5 resident and his son Lloyd Graves 5 excuse me Lloyd Graves 4 who is also a ward 5 resident so I'm pleased to have them here and I wanted to thank all the boys in attendance for your input and
▶ 42:08 for being here this evening I know it's getting late so thank you thank you madam chair thank you Alderman master thank you to our guests for being here this evening we are still in the period of public comment if there are any other members of the public who wish to come forward on the snow ordinance good evening my name is Alice Golub I live here at 15 Howard Street and I am partially here about the intersection from hell because it is one of the places that they mound the snow and the crosswalks have been an issue I don't mean to be disrespectful but I would respectfully like to ask every alderman attendance, how many of you commute to work using public transportation and are required to walk to or from that public transportation each day? I'm sorry, but
▶ 43:07 our rules actually don't allow for a back and forth between the Alderman and the public comment. Thank you. Okay. Well, I did that for 12 of my 14 and a half years here in Melrose, and I'm very conflicted about an ordinance because I understand that there are reasons that people have where they're not able to shovel they're infirmed their absentee landlords they're on vacation all of those things however if you commute on a daily basis it is really an issue I can't tell you how many times I had to walk in the middle of Howard Street with cars whizzing by at every moment because sidewalks were not only shoveled but then they ice over. We do have the problems with the plows mounding the snow at major intersections and then you're literally
▶ 43:56 hiking over what become almost like igloos because they're ice, they're frozen. There is also confusion with the snowcat and I think that the city really needs to clear up that confusion. On Howard Street in particular the snowcat goes up and down, I believe that is the north side of Howard Street, so the side that the Horace Mann School is on, it does not clear the south side of Howard Street. Therefore, the children that have to walk, they come up Nelson or Elm or whatever, that piece of Howard Street has to be cleared by the residences. The plows come around. Now, I know Thorp going to be design changes. They're already working, and that might alleviate some of the issues with the piled snow there, but that's only one piece
▶ 44:44 of our town. Now, the city area-wise is very small. I understand that other neighboring cities and towns may not have an ordinance, but they are not, in some ways they're like Melrose, but they are not walkable cities. Reading, Linfield, Saugus are much larger area-wise. They're towns that rely on school busing. People bus their children to school. They're not walking two, three-year-olds to the early childhood center on Franklin Street in a stroller trying to get over snow mounds and trying to get walk on paths that they can't walk on because they're not shoveled so personally I'm all about community and I understand we each have different reasons that we can't do certain things but what we
▶ 45:31 really need to do is work as a community that means the police department DPW the individual residents the schools everybody is in this together I don't think it's fair for the residents to put it on the DPW I don't think it's fair for the police to put it on the residents we need to find a way to do it all together and if it's just having a rule that everyone is respectful even if the fines aren't enforced we're making a statement saying this is how we want to live and behave as a community that's what it's all about that's how we take care of one another in Melrose from the youngest to the eldest thank you thank you good evening I'm Aspen Olmstead I'm a new resident here as of June I love
▶ 46:26 Melrose but Thorp a few things I don't like I guess I throw my name down but uh one is we do not pay for school buses we do not have taxes that pay for school buses that means children are walking on these snow banks on roads that off our sidewalks that don't often have any leeway between the road where people are speeding I walk my son every morning down Pleasant Street Thorp a section from Florence Street on where Thorp Thorp a very narrow sidewalk and Thorp often kids walking alone right this happened the other day Friday morning they did not delay school and kids were walking alone in the alone on these sidewalks and cars are speeding by it's not about people falling and breaking their legs to me it's about a kid falling into a road that's all I
▶ 47:09 want to say oh I want to say one other thing sorry I'm a computer scientist and Thorp all kinds of ways that I could write a little robot that could take pictures of people who haven't shoveled their sidewalks and it wouldn't cost a lot of money we don't need to think like it's the 1970s I'll shut up now thank you good evening I'm Jerry Morrows I live on Mount Vernon Street I overheard a renowned Melrose person tonight say this is a something to the order of this is a complicated solution looking for a problem to solve and frankly the evidence shows we don't really have a problem other than that we live in New England and Thorp snow and it's tough sometimes if we want to make a statement to the sit to the residents of the city and to the public that we care
▶ 48:20 about the children being safe in the sidewalks not walking in the street elderly people being able to get or commuters to get to the commuting stations the city has a perfect remedy we plow the sidewalks that belong to the city it's a simple thing to do right we have four sidewalk plows we could escalate that to some degree the city can pay for it appropriately with the tax revenue that we get that's assessed by law to the rent to the to the homeowners and property owners of Melrose that's the plate that's the that's a structure in place to pay for services that cities provide to sit there and think that residents should be doing the work of the city is is is backwards right we form governments in the first place to accomplish things
▶ 49:06 that we can't do it individually very well or at all or to do things more efficiently together that are way more way less efficient doing them separately we don't have everybody get us their own private trash contract to have their own private trash taken away and have contractors all over the city at different times every day doing different things we don't do it we create a DPW or we have a contract with a provider that does it and takes care of the city we don't have people having private fire services anymore as they did in Philadelphia in the 1700s right we don't have people having private water and sewer you don't even let people have a private well anymore we put it together that we have a water system this is what cities are about
▶ 49:53 this is what government is about it's a basic function what I want to say additionally is every person that has a sidewalk in the city whether they paid for it themselves when their property was built or they paid for it in the relative value of their property when they bought that property after the fact they paid to put that sidewalk in those people bettered our city by putting sidewalks in to now tax them because they are helping our city and made it better while the people who don't have sidewalks in front of their houses that never bothered to pay for them either by themselves or through a betterment through the city we let them say well you did nothing to help the city with with pedestrian crossing through the city but so we're not going to make you
▶ 50:39 do anymore, whereas the people who already have provided the resources to put those sidewalks in or have paid for them in the increased value of their property since then, you know, if you go forward with this, the implication is going to be that a sidewalk isn't a betterment to a property, right? It's a deficiency to a property. Now that person has to shovel. Should I pull out the sidewalk in front of my house so I don't have to shovel it? Is that the, you know, somebody here mentioned earlier the concept of culture. What kind of culture do we want to create in Melrose? Is it a culture where we're going to stick it to you because you're not doing what I say you should do or what the city says you should be doing when you're not saying it
▶ 51:21 to somebody else? That's not fair. You know, government has a responsibility to think about what the implications of what it does are. I want to throw out a couple of absurd things, which is they're just as absurd, or what your proposing is just as absurd as this you know the property owners that have put sidewalks there thank them they've done a nice service for the city right and the developers that were thoughtful enough to put them in and charge those people more money when those neighborhoods were created years and years ago they did something that the city benefits from the people walking down the sidewalks didn't necessarily do anything why don't we have the users of the sidewalks then
▶ 52:01 this is absurd i agree why don't the users pay for the sidewalks that they're using that other people provided they're they're receiving a service i don't think that's much more absurd than what you're proposing is the people who happen to have done something for the city now you're taxing them to do to because they've done they've tried to make something good you know i guess we can get creative like the like the the easy pass right we can we can everybody has a cell phone everybody's tracking their google's tracking your your thing we can see who's using what sidewalks where we could go and send them an email up you went down four sidewalks today we're charging you a buck today that's absurd too you're not thinking of doing it but it says
▶ 52:43 it's what you're thinking of doing is as absurd as that um i wholeheartedly agree with the person i don't think this ordinance should pass if you don't get my my message here but you know the idea that you don't put a quantitative value on the width of a cleared sidewalk is absurd who would ever write an ordinance or vote for an ordinance that is that ambiguous right you say you have if you ever have any law you don't leave it up to the impressions of different people about what's appropriate one way or another you talk about harming the culture of a city how many arguments do you create about oh well they didn't do it big enough for me and i wanted it more like this and well that i couldn't shovel anymore because my back broke today you
▶ 53:34 know where are you going with this again the city owns these sidewalks they aren't owned by the people are budding them the city has a sidewalks if you want them cleared you vote money in the city budget to clear those sidewalks it's a simple thing to do do you think Thorp not enough money well go back and find something else you tell us what's more important to you is clearing the sidewalks more important to you and you're willing to allocate funds toward that this is where you set your priorities right what other things in the city are less important that you're funding now that the sidewalks are more important than right let's talk about those things have a real discussion don't just because somebody made a few you know red line edits to an ordinance to
▶ 54:21 try to take away some of the the people who have some issues specifically about it to try to make it so it passes let's talk about this holistically about what we want to be as a city who we want to be how we want to run our city what priorities we establish and so what is more important than what I want to make a few other points. The city of Melrose, as great as a DPW does, you can find fault in every snowstorm, not because anybody hasn't done their job, but because winter happens, right? I'm fairly familiar with the Pleasant Street, Washington Street corridor going down to Oak Grove. Now, and I'm familiar very much with Emerson Street, and I'm familiar with other streets in town. Where I've been out in the middle of the night, I manage property, I'm driving around, and I see a lot of things.
▶ 55:11 And I see plows when Thorp not much snow like there was the other night. Was that Thursday night, I believe? You know, I see plows. Thorp not a whole lot of snow. So they can go really fast down those streets plowing. and they can go so fast that I know sidewalks that were cleared that now the plow through the slush up over the curb right across the sidewalk covered it more than any snow that was there to start with who's responsible for that the person that already cleared their sidewalk under your ordinance or do they have an action against the city for trespassing and causing them harm because they complied with the ordinance and the city did something against it What about so many crosswalks that have been put in with the ramp for the handicapped people and the blind people with the little textured things?
▶ 56:01 So many of those are in a low spot. The way that they were framed, they're lower. And water accumulates there, I know because I walk through it and try to step over it frequently, right? You know, is that homeowner who lives by that crosswalk now responsible for going out there? and because Thorp a puddle of water that's freezing over now you're requiring them to put ice melt on the puddle that the city created because of a poor design or or somebody didn't realize that it was a poor design when they did it you know there are so many downstream things that your ordinance causes a problem for it makes more problems than the few individual units in town that don't clear their sidewalks today and I want to say that I want to
▶ 56:49 say that I'm somebody that tries I I own a snowblower I'm not ashamed of that I used to shoveled my life my share of snow in my years and I try to go and help out my neighbors either I'm out there earlier in the morning than they are or they can't do it because Thorp so much snow or something I try to do it and I'm glad to do that to my neighbors it's the thing that I do because I like them and I want to show them that I'm I'm appreciating them and if I'm able to do it and have the time that day and the energy I do it but don't make them responsible for it so that now they feel obligated to me somehow because I've saved them some money because they haven't gone and had to hire somebody you know six hours during the storm I haven't read all through the revised
▶ 57:38 thing here but but six hours after a storm is done if I'm at work at 6 in the morning I'm not getting home until 7 at night and the snow ended at 730 or 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock you're gonna find me because I'm at work still making money to pay my taxes that ought to be clearing the snow from the sidewalks we're talking about an absurdity here that if you vote for it you're not thinking of the biggest picture in my view and I made that personal about you because I would like to see real honest communication I'd like to see if anybody that votes this ordinance I would like to see them address every issue that's been raised not only here but I'm sure through the emails you've gotten and yes I want to nod to the people who need to use the sidewalks they want them to be
▶ 58:25 good and safe but don't be looking pointing fingers at the homeowners look to this body and say to this body you're the body that's saying that the sidewalks aren't getting cleared that are sidewalks you're the body saying oh we're not shoveling we're not plowing your sidewalk for you for you pedestrians to use safely don't point at the homeowners it's in this room the mayor can put it in the budget you can vote it to plow the sidewalks you can do it way more efficiently than individual homeowners either doing it themselves with heart attacks and broken backs or bad knees or slip and falls because they're out there doing it um mr ross i need to ask you to to wrap up with i shall thank you thank you um the issue is is that we form a
▶ 59:16 government to provide the public goods that we can do so much better as a as a government as a community of people than we can as individuals this this fits in that category if you care get a few more sidewalk plows a few more people make the routes be longer whatever you do in the in the snowstorms get it done because how unfair is it not only the people who don't have sidewalks don't have to bother going out and doing anything but the people who are on the sidewalk routes can sit there sipping their coffee on the sunday morning while the people who aren't on the sidewalk walk routes and don't have it have to say geez i can't go to church today on this sunday morning because I have to shovel my walk so please please you know think thoroughly
▶ 1:00:05 about this have a thorough conversation about this and address all the issues I certainly challenge you not to vote for this without addressing all these issues it will only come back to bite you and us all the whole city is a community again and again and again for as long as that ordinance would remain in the books thank you thank you sir any further public comment on this order do we have other members of the public wishing to speak sir you can always we've we've heard from you you can write to the board as well are there my other members motion to close public comment matter chair we have a motion to close public Comments made by Alderman Mortimer, seconded by Alderman Lipper-Garabedian.
▶ 1:01:05 Jennifer L. Lemmerman: All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Public comment has been closed. We have the one order on our agenda this evening. It's order 2019-9, amending Mauro's revised ordinances, Chapter 177-12, snow and ice removal as set forth herein. This order is sponsored by President Search and Alderman Wright. I do want to mention that we did receive a communication this afternoon that has been attached to the order, and every member of the committee should have a printout in front of them regarding the request for a financial study that was made at our previous meeting. President Search. CHAIRMAN BERNANKE. Thank you, Madam Chair. First, I'll start off by thanking the members of the public for being here this evening
▶ 1:01:47 Michael P. Zwirko: and the previous two times this was heard before the Appropriations Committee as well as the Public Works Committee. that this order has of similar nature has failed twice before over the years I knew that this wouldn't be something that would be easily to be passed but I thought it was a discussion that was worth having each winner that goes by we aldermen are inundated with many stories of impassable snow and areas even this past weekend there was reference to the storm that we had on Thursday I myself received two communications about certain areas so we do hear about this a lot and I thought it was worthy to have the conversation once again I will also add that the last time we met I really wanted to push not only the board but
▶ 1:02:40 Michael P. Zwirko: this community to think about ways in which this could be improved and I've received a lot of feedback and we heard some of that tonight so these things don't always start off perfect but the hope is that you get them close to perfect upon passage if that's where we're going this evening so I did want to just make a couple of comments because I did have an item a document that was posted to this order it is some proposed suggested amendments to the proposed ordinance so I do have a statement it shouldn't take too long I'll just read that and then we can have some further discussion the amended proposal before you tonight as it's posted in IQM to showcases nearly four months of meetings discussions opinions and suggestions not only from this body
▶ 1:03:27 Michael P. Zwirko: but also residents civic organizations and other community leaders this has been a valuable and open process that has engaged the public on this issue through this process of balance has been struck that seeks to address serious public safety concerns of pedestrians being directed into the streets and the concerns around fiscal enforcement of mandated removal over the past four months and up to our penultimate meeting on this topic I have concerns I have heard concerns on five specific areas that these amendments seek to address number one the need to redefine the removal of quote-unquote all snow the use of all snow has been removed and in its place it now reads reasonable amounts a reasonable standard is often employed as it as it allows the
▶ 1:04:07 Michael P. Zwirko: enforcing parties to use their own judgment in these matters as opposed to a more draconian standard of all further we define what type of snow is to be removed most residents didn't have an issue with the spirit of this ordinance rather the implementation of it and its feasibility given that Melrose is a very dense area community many times corners and crosswalks are plowed in by redefining the snow to be removed as quote-unquote naturally fallen snow it stresses the need to remove the snow from a weather event and that which is not subject to cleanup efforts although we do ask that every effort be made to ensure reasonable passage to increased times to allow for removal of snow up to 12 hours between sunrise and sunset after the cessation of a winter event
▶ 1:04:50 Michael P. Zwirko: given the bedroom community nature of Melrose and the multitude of commuters that reside here expanding the time to allow for sidewalks to be cleared would allow for residents to have the time they need to clear the impacted areas without being fined three the responsible parties to enforce this ordinance change while the hope was that there would be many ways in which this issue could be enforced as a way to reduce burden on any one department it is clear that there can should be only one department responsible for its enforcement the Melrose Police Department however enforcement will only be effective with good education and communication on this new requirement and therefore I inserted language authorizing the DPW to assist in the
▶ 1:05:28 Michael P. Zwirko: implementation of this ordinance as they have been successful with prior efforts on educating and engaging with our residents number four different effective dates the imposition of a fine was the biggest detractor to this ordinance after input and feedback I felt that it was important to address the need for some sort of a penalty but I wanted to balance that with a year-long educational initiative like the bring your own bag proposal a delay in its implementation allowed for more seamless transition with less confusion my hope is the same here allow residents more time to understand their responsibility and how to comply with it now the proposal puts the fines in effect as of 1 1 20 fifth and final our appeals the last section of this
▶ 1:06:08 Michael P. Zwirko: ordinance provides an avenue to appeal as outlined in the section of mass general laws noted this is a customary process among many municipalities in summation I hope that these changes have identified areas of concern and will allow us to take action on this order up or down with that I do defer to this body for further discussion I once again wanted to say thank you to not only my colleagues but members of the public who proffered their suggestions thank you madam chair thank you other alderman wishing to speak on this order thank you very much and thank you to all the people who came out to speak on this order tonight very eloquent very well stated we appreciate your concern for our city also thank you to all the people who have sent emails and
▶ 1:06:57 Peter D. Mortimer: communicated through other measures I am inclined not to vote for this I think I've made my opinion pretty public about that an article on the patch an article law and the weekly and an article in the free press for all of the reasons and a few others stated tonight and I won't review them all I'll add some new ones one we really haven't heard from the mayor's office on this mayor Dolan used to say I propose and all of you dispose and probably 90% of our ordinances get sent down from the mayor's office not saying it can't Thorp 12 people in this city who were legally authorized to submit an order the 11 alderman and the mayor and those are the only people when the mayor's representatives the chief of
▶ 1:07:55 Peter D. Mortimer: police and the DPW came before us they were lukewarm at best on this ordinance I've talked to some police officers individually and they have flat-out told me I'm not doing this I'm not I'm not going to do this then they said we don't have the time to do it they said we do have as was mentioned by the public other more important things to do when a snowstorm is on it got to the point with our parking which is revenue positive by the way we get a lot of money for the general fund through the parking tickets we write that we have to meet up personnel they happen to be men to meet a man who walk around the city of and write tickets and they they bring in a lot of money to the city more than their salaries but as was aptly stated tonight this this will not this this
▶ 1:08:59 Peter D. Mortimer: will be a problem in administration and enforcement appeals I'm concerned about safety but we had one and you know I'm not gonna sugarcoat it we had one little storm Thursday night it was slush it was slush that's all it was it was a couple of inches of slush and we had people who sent us in photographs that the city did not clear their pedestrian and handicapped walkways where you have a little rubber tactile entrances the city didn't do that the city made a financial decision Thursday night they plowed and just a quick aside to mr. Moreau's reference that the plows were going so fast because the snow was so such a small amount that somebody would already cleared ended up flipping snow back on
▶ 1:10:01 Peter D. Mortimer: the sidewalk but after a couple of people walk over that or you get a little bit of wind and if this would ever pass and I certainly hope it doesn't how does the enforcement officials supposed to know whether that was put there by plow how was they supposed to know whether that's natural fallen snow or whether it was the plow that was going along a straightaway that put snow on there by going so fast and and not to mention the corners and then it turns into a mound of ice that you'd have to attack with a pickaxe to get cleared up the city of Everett which has a lot of industrial property and has much better demographics than we have to get federal and state aid the demographics allow them much better federal and state aid they have a code
▶ 1:10:58 Peter D. Mortimer: enforcement department that includes four vehicles and eight full-time personnel not to mention a clerical staff that services them and other people too one thing I haven't heard about changing is even an order even something about eliminating the fine let's eliminate the fine we're talking about we'll change it to this definition the number of hours it's two people wide we'll change it from one person watch it but I haven't heard anybody talk about eliminating the fine if this thing is gonna fly at all we got some photos that were passed around tonight and they were a commercial establishment it was the Whole Foods Plaza the Whole Foods Plaza and it was a city crosswalk it wasn't anybody's house it was it was it was it was the Whole Food Plaza ministry the
▶ 1:11:54 Peter D. Mortimer: Whole Foods Plaza was already covered by our ordinances because it's a commercial property and the other one was the shell station and a crosswalk but those are already covered by our ordinances I haven't seen anybody somebody was saying the slush we had the other day people didn't shovel but there were people called up and said people haven't shoveled they haven't shoveled but the snow was gone the city made a decision not to send out the sidewalk plows Thursday night they called out the plowing contractors but they did not send out the sidewalk plows for the school because walking because they looked in my opinion they made the right call because it cost money it cost money as was pointed out here and they didn't send out the sidewalk plows because that
▶ 1:12:41 Peter D. Mortimer: cost money and the prediction was that it was going to rain the temperature was going to go up it was not going to freeze the next night or the next day or the day after that and our DPW people are intelligent they look at the weather forecast and the slush just disappeared and people were saying oh I saw a woman trying to push a stroller through slush well you can push a stroller through slush what's harder is trying to push a stroller across the 31% of sidewalks that don't the 30% of house frontage is that don't have sidewalks whether they have snow on them or not you go by any given 100 houses in Melrose one or two of them won't be shoveled even after a heavy storm but 31 of them won't have
▶ 1:13:25 Peter D. Mortimer: sidewalks for any given hundred houses 31 of them won't have sidewalks and you're gonna have to walk in the street for those for those people because they don't have sidewalks and this this is just you know a problem our DPW director didn't even know that Linfield had a snow shoveling ordinance but they have have one without a fine. The only city that abuts us, Redding doesn't, Winfield doesn't, but of the four cities that abut us, the only one that has one with a fine is Malden. But Malden has 95% sidewalk coverage. Melrose only has 69% sidewalk coverage. I think it's well stated that what we could do is use any money that this would go for to plow. One One person sent in an email or made a post on social media that sometimes I have to walk
▶ 1:14:23 Peter D. Mortimer: in the street and sometimes it's dark and it's always cold. Well, we can't change that winter is cold. I wish we could. I wish we could have enough money to while be on cruise ships. But this comes down to real money. This comes down to real money. And if you take from one, ultimately it all comes out of the same bucket. And I would like to see more money go to our schools, obviously. I would like to see more money to fix the police station. I would like to see more money to fix the fire station. Our library is badly in need of repair. We have these priorities, but even now with this ordinance coming up, people are saying, I couldn't get by the sidewalk. The snow was melted by 11 o'clock in the morning, but it already, even without the ordinance being in place,
▶ 1:15:18 Peter D. Mortimer: created people who sent us information who were in favor of this ordinance and people who sent us information who were against this ordinance. And if anything, I would go for something educational, especially, and I'll bring it full circle, whereas the mayor herself has not weighed in on this. She has not come out and said, I hope you pass this and we'll implement it this way and that way, because ultimately it would be the executive branch. We're the legislative branch. I know we all know this. I'm being a little didactic, a little pedantic here, but we're the legislature. The executive branch, and it's a very strong executive form of government in Melrose, should propose an ordinance, especially something as far-reaching and sweeping as this,
▶ 1:16:06 Peter D. Mortimer: Because if we haven't heard from the mayor that she will do this, and she will do that, and she will do this. We got, again, this lukewarm letter sometime late this afternoon, which really doesn't say too much beyond we'll do some education, and I'm all in favor of education. I'd like to see that gentleman taken up to pay that $175 for the door hangers if we don't pass this. Yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you. I'll do it. right now that would that would be a good thing but you know this ordinance is is a bad fit at this time for the city of Melrose we have more important priorities we have more important fish to fry than this and its convenience but I've said it before and no one that I can remember in Melrose has ever been
▶ 1:17:01 Peter D. Mortimer: hit on the street in the winter time by a car. And I've lived here for 50 years. I've heard of a lot of people, about six or seven in the last 10 years, who got killed in the summertime and the fall, and I named one of these meetings and I won't name them again, but it wasn't because of snow. And I know it's inconvenient and sometimes you have leave early and one nice lady said well one side of the street well sometimes you might have to cross the street and walk on the other side of the street in the winter you have to leave a little early you have to do what you have to do but ultimately the money all comes out of the same bucket and I'd rather see it go to the schools the police station the fire station the library etc etc road in
▶ 1:17:49 Francis X. Wright Jr.: control I'd like to see it go to these things and we could do an educational outreach and that i think that would be a better use of our time and money thank you madam chair thank you alderman wright thank you madam chair um you know i i signed on to this order um and i proposed it a few years ago and maybe it has to do with where you live in the city i don't know um people i have three elderly complexes in ward three i have a lot of people around me and i know a lot of other people around the city who like to think of melrose as a walkable city um you know they they will walk their children to school they'll walk from around my neighborhood you'll walk your children to the lincoln to the roosevelt you might walk with them
▶ 1:18:45 Francis X. Wright Jr.: and get them on their way to the middle school and they certainly the kids themselves walk to to the middle school and the high school many of the residents also walk to the bus stops they walk downtown to Main Street they walk to West Wyoming I'm sure they walk all over the city we have a number of bus routes to the city they walk to Oak Grove I say we will go down Washington Street or Main Street in the morning in the darkness or at night in the darkness this time of year you see a a number of people walking to and from Oak Grove commuter rail stations number of people in the neighborhoods walk to the commuter rail stations number of people in those elderly complexes walk downtown they walk downtown for their
▶ 1:19:32 Francis X. Wright Jr.: appointments whether they're doctors appointments or hair appointments or they get to the supermarket or maybe go out to lunch now and then but certainly some of those appointments they need to keep when Thorp snow on the ground um i just believe that melrose sees itself as a walkable city and i see it as a walkable city so i thought this was worth pursuing um you know alderman Letter garabedian i believe gave us a list of communities uh last meeting um i believe there are more than two dozen perhaps um and somehow those communities seem to be able to function with these ordinances pandemonium does not break out when they try to enforce these ordinances somehow they're able to keep their sidewalks clear
▶ 1:20:27 Francis X. Wright Jr.: they're not overrunning their citizens they're not trying to you know force citizens into paying fines that they shouldn't have to find they're reasonable i think people in melrose are reasonable we spend a lot of money in this city and and i'm the first one to say i'm proud of it to clear our streets to make sure that if you got to get out in the morning you can get out in the morning you can drive your car you can get to the Malden line you can get to the Saugus line and you can get to the Stoneham line and you might say boy these communities aren't plowed as nicely as Melrose is we spend a lot of time and effort money plowing those streets I'd like to have a little bit of effort put into clearing the sidewalks
▶ 1:21:14 Francis X. Wright Jr.: so people who are walking can do so safely that's all i thought we were trying to accomplish here but it's clear that Thorp a vocal group in this city who don't want to see it happen but i'm still behind it i'm still behind the people who walk i'm still behind public safety i'm still i still believe that if we're going to invest that amount of money in making sure vehicles can get where they need to go that people who need to get the public transportation or need to get downtown I need to check on their neighbors I can do that safely too thank you thank you thank you madam chair when this order first came before committee prior to that I had reached out to President Zwirko and to alderman Rita I
▶ 1:22:05 Shawn M. MacMaster: notified them that I had some concerns with the order that was before us and since that time I've spent a lot of time listening and studying the issue without weighing in on the merits but tonight I wanted to state my position on the order I understand the purpose of the order I appreciate Alderman Wright and President Zwirko intentions and although I agree with the spirit of the proposed order I disagree with the approach there are four concerns that I have one of the concerns mayors what Alderman Mortimer raised at a prior meeting and the other three i don't believe have been discussed to date the first is that the maintenance of roads and sidewalks is an inherently governmental function i don't think that removing snow is something
▶ 1:22:49 Shawn M. MacMaster: that we should require of the public we should hope for it but not require it now i realize that it's not practical to expect dpw with its current resources to maintain every sidewalk in the city but if we fail as a board that the removal of snow from residential sidewalks is that important and I think it's the responsibility of the city to figure out how to get it done and I don't think Thorp an easy solution to that my second concern is about precedent if this order passes who's to say that this order does not become a springboard from which to file other onerous orders on the public so especially in trying fiscal time so might we expect homeowners to chip ice away or shovel snow from a catch basin or to shovel out a fire hydrant or to maintain the big
▶ 1:23:43 Shawn M. MacMaster: blue sand barrel in front of their residents we should hope for that but i don't think that we should mandate it and i think that's a slippery slope to head down my third concern is that this would be very difficult to enforce and this is what alderman mortimer discussed at a prior meeting i think we'd be overburdening our city employees and setting them up to fail from inspecting properties to communicating with residents and non-compliance to handling hardship requests or exemptions as i think the amendment says i don't think it would be cost effective finally my fourth concern is that i don't think that an order that contains a fine structure is equitable i'm concerned about the elderly and the disabled
▶ 1:24:28 Shawn M. MacMaster: who may not be physically or financially able to comply i'm concerned about our low-income residents and those living on fixed incomes i'm concerned about the single parents who naturally would be hesitant to leave their infant or young child unattended in order to shovel and finally i'm concerned about our immigrant residents many of whom live in ward 5 and work multiple jobs making it nearly impossible to comply with the proposed timeline as the data show between one and two and a half percent of parcels go unshoveled of the 8 506 parcels only 58 58 didn't shovel during both storms studied i hardly think that this is an issue so severe of a problem that we need to legislate it i think a more prudent and cost-effective alternative
▶ 1:25:24 John N. Tramontozzi: would be to target the habitual offenders with outreach and education frankly i'd rather compel someone to comply through a conversation than coerce them to do so through legislation put another way i think our goal should be to achieve voluntary compliance thank you madam chair thank you alderman Tramontozzi thank you madam chair as i expressed that other times that this ordinance has been presented i am not inclined to support it for the same reasons that alderman mortimer and alderman mcmaster have finally expressed you know we do have and currently have a snow and ice removal ordinance it's been in place for some quite some time and this board has not seen fit to amend it to add in the residential requirements and i don't see any reason what has changed over the past 20
▶ 1:26:21 John N. Tramontozzi: 30 40 years that this particular ordinance which covers commercial um owners of property and i see no reason why the conditions in the city have changed that requires the additional amendments to this disorder ordinance i agree we you know we can have public outreach and education without amending the ordinance and and i do like suggestions that are made and how we can just make it aware to the public then the desire and the need to make our sidewalk safe and to assist our neighbors without requiring it in an ordinance so I too would be inclined not to vote in favor of this amendment thank you thank you thank you and I'll try to be brief since we've talked discussed this a couple of times I really appreciate the members of the public who
▶ 1:27:21 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: have weighed in tonight and also over email and I appreciate presidents work Oh providing to our committee a redlined version of the initial draft which I think includes many of the amendments that were recommended in previous conversations so thank you for that work just to update the board since the last time we met and talked about this I did reach out to the municipalities of Arlington, Belmont, Swampscott, Gloucester, Wakefield, Newton, and Medford. Only Medford did not get back to me, but I was able to talk to someone or multiple people at the other six localities. One conversation that really stood out to me is Swampscott, which only passed their bylaw this past year, will be enforcing it for the first time this winter.
▶ 1:28:11 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: I spoke with the police chief there, Police Chief Madigan, who told me, quote, this is a public safety issue. I want to make sure our kids and people with disabilities have a safe place to walk and that really I thought was Encouraging to hear from the the responsible party in Swampscott Arlington provided me with some numbers I apologize deeply and I'm happy to provide these later in the middle of bedtimes and packing for Thanksgiving. I left my spreadsheet at home but there there were certainly both in Arlington and Belmont anecdotal and quantitative data that had been collected that suggested there was quite a bit of requirements with respect to reaching out to people to provide warnings that it wasn't that there were resources that were involved but that
▶ 1:29:04 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: when it came to actually issuing fines they were there were very few that most times the warning was very quite sufficient and Wakefield again that was a community where there are only certain streets that are required to have their sidewalks and most of those are not residential neighborhoods like ours but in any event as alderman Wright indicated it's true and some limited research that I did 27 of 35 towns or cities that are either near us or have some comparability to us have an ordinance in place and not one of these towns or cities that I've looked at plows all the sidewalks I don't know that any municipality and the Commonwealth does that frankly so that that's just you know some background on the fact that having an ordinance like
▶ 1:29:55 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: this in place would not make us an outlier in fact we would be falling in line with what I would say are a larger percentage of cities and towns in the greater Metro Boston area I've stated before that I think our composition of not providing public transportation for students in Melrose public schools and requiring families to figure out ways to get their students to school differentiates us in a way that speaks in favor of some type of requirement same with having three commuter rail stations and being next to Oak Grove and having bus lines and with having a vibrant senior population as well as commercial districts where we want people to frequent that said it seems to me that it's quite unlikely tonight we have the votes to support this ordinance
▶ 1:30:42 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: since we would need eight members of this body to eventually pass the ordinance nonetheless in the interest of moving this to some sort of closure I would make a motion to approve this ordinance with the red lines that presidents work Oh has submitted that are publicly available with one additional amendment which would be that in the paragraph e 2 under an enforcement we delete all references to fines so that it would then read whoever violates any of the provisions of subsections a through C of 177-12 shall be fined $50 per day for the first offense in each subsequent offense that's related to non-residential properties with the exception of a violation of owner occupied residentially zoned one or two prop
▶ 1:31:33 Monica C. Medeiros: family property which shall receive a warning noting that the owner occupant has violated ordinance 177-12 Alderman Lipper-Garabedian is making a motion to amend this order to include the updated changes provided by President Search in addition to this current change is that correct yes thank you we have a second The motion fails for lack of a second. Thank you. Alderman Medeiros. Thank you. And I, too, I won't belabor this. I expressed in the past my opposition to this order. I think that we can accomplish the goal of this without the ordinance as such. I think Thorp major problems with enforcement that it could be selectively enforced. frankly the bottom line is is i don't think we have the resources to to enforce this i don't
▶ 1:32:39 Monica C. Medeiros: think we have the financial resources to do that we have a memo here from mr shenna talking about just some of the the costs talking about up to four thousand five hundred dollars in printing costs if we want to notify the entire city and if we opt to send a mailer the total cost would be twelve thousand five hundred I think we can do this and you know we certainly I think are all united in wanting to see the streets cleared in Melrose and have it impassable and safe I think that we can we have a problem with we're seeing one to two percent of the residents according to DPW I think Thorp confusion and you know we've seen we still have the problem of winter happens I think Alderman Mortimer said it right winter happens and it's we have a
▶ 1:33:39 Monica C. Medeiros: limited space and we don't have a lot of space to put the snow when it falls and inevitably much of the problem is areas like the corners where the city has maybe even gone through with the sidewalk plow but come back and there remains a whole lot of snow on that corner and ice that is too much for a residential homeowner to to clean up sometimes I think you know we don't necessarily have any extra money to start new projects but if we are going to do this and I know I said this at a previous meeting I think we could look at some of the commuter routes and adding look at those you know routes to go to bus stops routes to go to the train station we look at school routes in terms of what the sidewalk plow uses to plow snow this is something it would
▶ 1:34:32 Monica C. Medeiros: cost us more money to do it I'm sure but you know they are out there it might be a reasonable reasonable solution that wouldn't cost that much more to do I think we can do we have some of the suggestions from residents and I think we've heard it from some of the members here you know very well put tonight we have the list of people who want to who've signed up to be the snow shovelers from people who need community service and others maintained by the mayor's office a robocall out to the residents letting them know that this exists perhaps you know neighborly outreach to those who are not complying to see if Thorp some other reason if they need help did they know that Thorp a list of people who are willing to do this and I think we could solve
▶ 1:35:24 Monica C. Medeiros: the problem but you know it's the and we do have and I want to make it really clear to the residents that they know that we do have an ordinance already on the books that if somebody in a commercial district doesn't clean their snow they can be fined and if somebody puts snow on a sidewalk that shouldn't be there or on the street for that matter that they can be fined so you know we saw the picture of the snow that was passed around by a resident of the Shell station with big mounds of snow over the sidewalk on Main Street well first of all that business owner at that point in time didn't clear their sidewalk and actually they caused snow to be to fall upon the sidewalk and that's against our ordinances already and i
▶ 1:36:17 Monica C. Medeiros: think the other picture that i saw i'm sorry to say i think that that was the mccarthy house which was you know which is city property and that means you know we can think about ways in which we can be a better neighbor and you know those kinds of issues where Thorp snow build up on corners or in areas where Thorp you know a park or public property you know those wouldn't be addressed by this ordinance but it seems to me from what i'm hearing from the public that it's an area that people do want to see addressed so you know i think i hope i'm sure that the mayor has followed this meeting it's ultimately it's up to the executive to to do these things but i hope she's taken some good suggestions and will implement them i would like to see that done but i think
▶ 1:37:08 Manisha Bewtra: this ordinance you know doesn't create the right culture it has enforcement issues and i think we can and it has a cost that i don't think we can bear right now thank you thank you alderman Bewtra thank you I'm not sure how it's possible to agree with sort of two sides of an argument but that's kind of the situation I keep finding myself in with this and I'm really struggling with it so with regards to the kind of idea that one to two percent of sidewalks not being very much I totally I do disagree with that notion in the sense that it's sort of like a clogged artery I think we do very much as a city need to figure out ways to prioritize walkability as much as we prioritize roadways as alderman Wright
▶ 1:38:01 Manisha Bewtra: suggested that said the ordinance even as amended which I appreciate the amendments I also appreciate the amendments that alderman liver Garabedian suggested still don't quite get there for me unfortunately I think given the way it's going I could propose more suggested changes but I don't think we have the votes right now my concerns are ultimately I do wish that we had a mechanism for consistently problem properties uh so maybe something like after the third warning getting a fine or maybe increasing the amount of time so that there is some recourse for the city for non-commercial properties that said um i do like the idea of public outreach i would support that and i very much think that our department of public works i know they do a great job i think
▶ 1:39:10 Manisha Bewtra: this issue of plowing from the streets onto corners on the sidewalk is something i just observed as of this thursday a lot of the examples that people sent to us were examples of sidewalks that were clogged along our sidewalk clearing routes and i would love to see over the next year that we really focus on making sure those sidewalk clearing routes are actually clear and that we work with the Department of Public Works to do a complete streets review as I think they suggested they will do through our earlier conversations a complete streets review of those routes to update them so that routes to transit are prioritized as well as routes to school so I guess that kind of leaves me in a position that I didn't expect to be in I'm
▶ 1:40:05 Manisha Bewtra: reluctant to support this as is with a caveat that this does not mean I want this issue to go away I think we do need to figure out ways to to address sidewalk clearing and we need to be an example through our own sidewalk clearing routes over the next year thank you thank you are there any other aldermen wishing to speak for the first time president's work oh thank you madam chair so I know that the comments come up a couple of times that you know we the board have better things to do and a lot of times I'm told that we don't do anything and now I'm being told that we need to do something so you know beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder I guess so I I put some some thought and some work into this proposed ordinance as I had referenced earlier it is
▶ 1:41:00 Michael P. Zwirko: attached to the order two zero one nine dash nine it is item three I move to amend the ordinance as outlined in that proposed ordinance with the amended changes I'd appreciate a second on that from my colleagues if possible so we can at least take an up-or-down vote on those proposed amendments we have a motion to amend as outlined by President Zwirko. Is there a second? Seconded by Alderman Wright. All in favor of the amendments? Aye. Opposed? For furthering of discussion I move to further amend the proposed order of 2019-9. I would just like at this time to simply strike section e2 of the ordinance I would replace it leaving the owner it would it would be stricken and it would read the owner tenant or occupant of any estate in those sections of the city containing
▶ 1:42:08 Michael P. Zwirko: commercial office and manufacturing facilities that violates any of the provisions of subsections a through C of this section shall be fined $50 essentially what that does is it incorporates all of the red line excluding section e2 it then cuts out residence puts forth as proposed in the red line attachment striking a residential fine a motion to amend made by presidents work oh there a second could I just point of order ask you to repeat that one time please certainly so this would what we just voted on the red line this would be inclusive of all of that except for section e2 it would be stricken entirely and replaced with which essentially just removes the residential fine the owner tenant or occupant of any estate in those sections of the city containing commercial
▶ 1:42:59 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: office and manufacturing facilities that violates any of the provisions of subsections a through c of this section shall be fined fifty dollars it just retains the commercial fine that is already on the books it strikes the expansion into the residential zoning areas we have a motion made TO, AS JUST READ BY PRESIDENT Search, IS THERE A SECOND? SECOND. SECOND BY ALDERMAN GARABEDIAN ON DISCUSSION. MAYBE THROUGH THE CHAIR, IS THERE A REASON WHY WE WOULDN'T GO BACK TO JUST WHATEVER THE ORDINANCE SAYS INITIALLY THERE? I CAN'T TELL IF, THROUGH THE CHAIR, PRESIDENT Search, IS THE ordinance right now as it stated just $50 or is it $50 per day I think it might be $50 per day for commercial office and manufacturing facilities and
▶ 1:44:01 Michael P. Zwirko: it sounded like your proposed amendment is just $50 thank you madam chair it states the $50 per day earlier in the ordinance itself I was just removing and altering section e2 I'll just add the other reason I kept the other and didn't with what what's on the books is i did think it was necessary to make the changes that we've heard not only from the residents this evening but also members of this board regarding all snow naturally falling snow and adding the portion about the outreach efforts and engaging the public on this so um those items i wanted to to keep and remove the rest in the hopes that um you know it's i've spoken with people and they've said if i had a choice between no fine and no ordinance i'd choose
▶ 1:44:42 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: the no fine so in an effort to at least get this into the the public and before them uh that's that's the hope here is that just simply striking the fine and leaving everything else will at least move this forward okay thank you for that clarification because i think it would be fine to keep the current fine approach for commercial office and manufacturing facilities the same as it is on the books right now and essentially my sense is what you are recommending is what I probably inartfully recommended a little earlier which is to accept your red lines and sections B and E1 which would allow for some responsibility on the books and then you know authorization of DPW to provide a lot of awareness and um an outreach um so that's fine any further discussion alderman
▶ 1:45:42 Peter D. Mortimer: mortimer um i'm concerned about this i think what we need to do is have some type of committee and study this really really diligently because even if we eliminate e2 which is the fine, E1 still mentions have the authority to enforce all provisions of 177.12 and upon petition demonstrating serious hardship due to combination of health and financial limitation, temporarily exempt owner occupants of one and two family residential property as to said owners, and then it says one or two family residents, I think it probably should say of one or two family residences but it still leaves in a reference to one and two family references I think at this point we should just leave things the way they
▶ 1:46:43 Peter D. Mortimer: are there needs to be a lot of work rather than work this out sentence by sentence paragraph by paragraph in this venue at this time I don't think we should do any amendments I think we should just vote against this and because it still does mention the one or two family residential property and it does include the the language upon petition demonstrating serious hardship and that means it would be the homeowner who would have to petition previous and I just think it's it leaves it open to some degree of ambiguity and cast a shadow that that this is upon the owners of residences to to demonstrate their hardship but I'd like to see this just let's just leave it the way it is look at it over the winter see how education goes see what kind of feedback we get
▶ 1:47:38 Shawn M. MacMaster: further and let's let's craft another ordinance next year maybe maybe next year when this is not an amendment it's just a point of discussion maybe we could do something for non owner occupied residences but at this point we've had four meetings several months of this and I think it's time just to put this to bed for this year thank you on discussion of the motion to amend Alderman McMaster Thank You madam chair I'm willing to vote to support all the Zwirko's amendment so long as the fine isn't there and of course that's the amendment or the motion that's before us I don't I don't think it's necessary but I know that President Zwirko has worked diligently on this for quite some time now not just this year but in the prior year with Alderman Wright so in the
▶ 1:48:38 Shawn M. MacMaster: interest of compromising I would be willing to support it I do think although it's not necessary that this could be a mechanism to formalize response protocols to identify those who are not in compliance and to ascertain the reason why and then to provide appropriate resources or referrals as needed the one thing that I think is missing though if we look under section e enforcement part one it talks about the exemption in the first sentence part Part two talks about the outreach, but Thorp nothing that promulgates response protocols. And I think we're setting ourselves up to fail if Thorp no affirmative step by this board to promulgate response protocols that identify or attempt to identify the habitual offenders, conduct that outreach, have a conversation, and
▶ 1:49:36 Shawn M. MacMaster: then have some type of referral plan in place to appropriate services. whether it's the Council on Aging or the Health Department or Elder Protective Services, whoever that might be. But I think Thorp something missing there as is. That's not to say that I wouldn't support it as is. I'm not making a motion, but for discussion purposes, if we did have something to the effect of promulgate response protocols, and whether that's the police department or DPW, which shall include a referral plan for who identified as in need of snow removal assistance. Again, that's not in the form of a motion, but just in the form of discussion. Thank you, Alderman Baxter. Any further discussion on the motion to amend?
▶ 1:50:21 Alderman Bewtra. I just wanted to thank President Zwirko for asking for this additional amendment. I'd be more inclined to support it. I appreciate Alderman McMaster's comments as well. Thank you. All in favor of the motion to amend? Aye. Any opposed? Opposed. Opposed. I'm gonna need hands on this. Could I see a show of hands for those ayes? Motion passes. The order. I saw four hands. I saw five, and then. Can we see the hands again, please? One, two, three, four, five, six. the motion as amended is before you motion for passage as amended we're in appropriations motion to recommend as uh motion recommend as amended we have a motion to recommend the order as amended uh second or maybe i would draw because i think um maybe with
▶ 1:51:36 Jennifer L. Lemmerman: uh alderman mcmaster's addition would be would be worth considering point of order this is this is getting out of hand i mean we got a motion it's been uh recommended let's just go with the motion we do have a motion on the floor anyway so we cannot at this point unless we were to be withdrawn have further motions i see apologies is there a second on the motion to recommend for passage motion seconded by alderman wright we have a motion made and seconded to recommend this order to the full board for full for passage all in favor aye show of hands please the and uh any Any opposed? Opposed. The motion passes to recommend for, you are opposed? Opposed. Okay, motion passes to recommend to the full board for passage.