Appropriations & Oversight Committee — 2018-10-15
Attendance
Manisha Bewtra ; Robert A. Boisselle ; Scott M. Forbes ; Jennifer L. Lemmerman ; Kate Lipper-Garabedian ; Shawn M. MacMaster ; Monica C. Medeiros ; Peter D. Mortimer ; John N. Tramontozzi ; Francis X. Wright Jr. ; Michael P. Zwirko
Agenda
Minutes
CITY OF MELROSE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE CALENDAR● OCTOBER 15, 2018 Aldermanic Chamber, Melrose City Hall Committee Meeting 7:30 PM 562 Main Street, Melrose, MA 02176 The public should take notice that the Melrose Board of Aldermen may, on certain occasions, have a quorum in attendance due to standing committees of the Board of Aldermen consisting of both voting and non-voting members. Members attending this duly posted meeting are participating and deliberating only in conjunction with the business of the standing committee. Attendee Name Title Status Arrived Jennifer L. Lemmerman Chair Present Scott M. Forbes Vice Chair Absent Peter D. Mortimer Ward 6 Alderman Present Robert A. Boisselle Ward 4 Alderman Present John N. Tramontozzi Voting Member Present Francis X. Wright Jr. Ward 3 Alderman Late 8:00 PM Monica C. Medeiros Alderman at Large Present Michael P. Zwirko President/ Ex-officio Member Present Manisha Bewtra Alderman at Large Present Kate Lipper-Garabedian Alderman at Large Present Shawn M. MacMaster Ward 5 Alderman Present
ORDER-2019-16 Acceptance Acceptance of Community Mitigation Funds, Encore Boston Harbor (Wynn) Casino Recommend Passage Appropriations Committee
ORDER-2019-9 Amending Revised Ordinances Amending Melrose Revised Ordinances, Chapter 177-12: Snow and ice removal as set forth herein. Hold City of Melrose Page 1 Updated 10/18/2018 10:05 AM
Transcript
▶ 0:01 Jennifer L. Lemmerman: Good evening. Good evening. The hour being 7.30 p.m. on October 15th, 2018. I call to order the meeting of the Appropriations Committee of the Melrose Board of Aldermen. This meeting is being recorded and broadcast live on MMTV. It's also available on the City of Melrose website for viewing later. Motion to open the floor for public participation, Madam Chair. Second. We have a motion to open the floor for public participation made by Alderman Mortimer, seconded by Alderman Boisselle. Before I take a vote, I'm just going to call the roll. I am the Chair, Alderman Lemmerman. I'm joined this evening by members Alderman Mortimer, Alderman Boisselle, Alderman Tramontozzi, Alderman Medeiros, President Zwirko, Alderman Bewtra, Alderman Lipper-Garabedian, and
▶ 0:42 Alderman McMaster. We have a motion made and seconded to open the floor for public comment. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? The floor is now open for any member of the public who wishes to come before us to speak on any item on our agenda. Good evening. Good evening. So I've never been here before so you guys can feel free to tell me if I'm doing this wrong welcome thanks my name is Danielle Bowers I live on Tremont Street in Melrose I have lived on Tremont Street for about 10 years and love it here in Melrose I am fortunate to live within walking distance of schools and shops and the train that I take to work every day but the issue that I came to talk to you guys about is is really my frustration with snow removal you know I I think that it's in in some ways it's
▶ 1:43 kind of a crazy conversation to have because I think the the right thing to do and the neighborly thing to do is to shovel your sidewalk and it makes me a little bit crazy to think that we need to think about a law or some sort of rule around this but I can say in my ten years of walking to the train I I don't find that that is the norm and so for me I why work in healthcare so I go to work in all weather I am a physician assistant at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute in Boston so if the trains are running I'm going to work it doesn't matter what the weather is doing and I think it's really important that I be able to get there safely so I live on Tremont Street I am literally a three-minute walk from
▶ 2:36 the train and I still can't get there after snowstorms without climbing snowbanks or walking in the middle of the street and for people who work in health care you are doing that when it's dark in the winter because you go in before the Sun comes up and you come home after the Sun goes down so never do I feel comfortable walking in the middle of the street after dark with cars and and plows and slippery roads and so I end up trying to climb the snow banks which is never how I want to start or end my day and you know thought it sort of hit home more for me last year when I was walking my daughter to school so up until last year I was just me but now I'm walking my daughter to Roosevelt to school and even from Tremont Street to Roosevelt which again is a three minute
▶ 3:27 walk in the other direction we couldn't get there I mean she literally last winter was climbing a snowbank taller than her to get there at the corner of Brunswick Park so Roosevelt is on Brunswick Park it's a one-way street and the end of that corner we couldn't get we couldn't get through to the school I mean she was climbing a snowbank taller than her and at one point I had my younger daughter and her trying to climb a snowbank to get to school which just doesn't seem like the right answer so I would certainly love to see something like this happen because I think it helps hold people accountable in my mind I would never think that we have the resources to be able to patrol this I mean I don't think that police officers are going to be able to go door-to-door
▶ 4:18 after every snowstorm but what I do think would be nice is the opportunity for me when I can't get my kid to school to call and have there be some sort of recourse for that and some sort of corrective action because otherwise it just happens again and again and again and in my ten years of walking to the train I know exactly where I can walk in which ones I can it's always the same sidewalk that's not shoveled but there's nothing that I can do without some sort of policy like this and some help enforcing that I don't know if people have a question we can't we can't take questions during public comment um but we thank you very much for your participation and if any members have any sort of um you know comment on what
▶ 5:03 Jennifer L. Lemmerman: you've said they could address it during our our debate on the issue okay awesome thank you thanks for having me motion to close public participation madam chair second we have a motion to close public participation by alderman mortimer seconded by alderman Boisselle all in favor aye aye any opposed public comment is now closed we'll move to the first item on our agenda this evening which is order 2019-16 acceptance of community mitigation funds on core boston harbor wind casino we do have mr shenninger the director of dpw if anyone would like second we have a motion to spend the rules made by alderman Tramontozzi seconded by alderman mortimer all in favor any opposed we are now under suspension of rules we have mr shena joining us at the table
▶ 5:48 good evening good evening everyone would you like to address the order before we go to questions sure i can give a brief summary of it the this order is in conjunction with the encore boston harbor formerly wind casino project that comes through the massachusetts gaming commission during the acceptance of and the issuance of that permit mitigation funds were were set aside for communities that could um could show that the project created a hardship and the former administration did that because the their current plan their prior plan is still their current plan is to offer shuttle service from the orange line for their employees they're encouraging their employees to travel to the casino through the orange line and the last stop on the orange
▶ 6:45 lines oak grove which abuts melrose um it's a small piece of funding compared to some of the mitigation funds that the casino is is distributing and the gaming commission is is distributing on behalf of the casino to neighboring communities but it is something and what better way to to implement those funds in melrose than to look at the corridor leading into oak grove the pedestrian corridor along pleasant street and washington street we with these funds will use stantec traffic consultant to look at ada accessible ramps crosswalk locations existing and proposed we also want to look at bus stops accident records up and down this corridor it's all of pleasant street that we'll study washington street from pleasant to the station
▶ 7:42 and then a piece of wyoming from main street to cottage and that's where the buses where the bus route typically is and that's a lot of what the traffic pattern that we see during commute hours it's about two and a half miles of road all together that the consultant will look at as part of it once we have completed the study we actually started some of this this grant was It was awarded in February under the prior administration. And it took us a little while to bring it before the board for final acceptance. We did a little bit of work over the summer in terms of traffic analysis. We wanted to see what that summer period brought. But the consultant will be back out in the fall to look at this corridor once again.
▶ 8:34 Once we have a final study, there'll be recommendations. We will try to leverage the balance of the funds. It's $100,000 that have been set aside for us, $26,000 for the study. And then the balance will go towards implementing the recommendations. Some of the recommendations may not cost anything. Some of the recommendations may be bring the MBTA in and maybe there's a shift of bus stops that's required that could help things. Some could be part of our spring traffic marking program. could be part of ongoing construction at um it's taking place at ashmont for instance so i i know that this corridor has the residents along this corridor and commuters in general that use it have always sought improvements to pedestrian bicycle accommodations in this area it blends
▶ 9:28 in well with the complete street program i had an email correspondence with all them minnesota and you know why this corridor not main street well main street was already part of the complete street program when we were applying for this at the same time and with pleasant street on washington street we felt we could directly connect melrose to the station if you go main street we're relying on the state to finish banks place because the mbta owns a portion of that um but like i said with coordination with the mbta their complete street program handling the main street piece of this corridor we thought this would be a nice nice project to run in parallel that's kind of an overview of what it is thank you alderman Tramontozzi uh thank you madam chair
▶ 10:20 John N. Tramontozzi: uh mr schenner is these this community mitigation fund grant uh require any matching fund from the city no no uh is there um the total amount that we get is a hundred thousand correct and there are other cities and towns that uh also um get are part of this program you got other funds yeah there's communities that are getting who determine the amount that each of the cities this is all under the control of the gaming commission okay is this uh a one-time grant or is that is it one time one time is there restrictions on what the funds can be used for and such as you mentioned a lot of what appears to be uh transportation type of issues are there are the restrictions on the use of the funds yeah yeah there's a lengthy there's a lengthy agreement that comes with the funds but
▶ 11:11 basically we applied to mitigate the hardship and the hardship that we argued was you're telling people use the orange line where the community right next to the orange line people have to get to the orange line that was the hardship that we argued and we were awarded a hundred thousand dollars to study that uh with a certified consultant and then start to make some of the improvements you said some of the improvements may not cost any any um any funds um if what What happens with the funds if we don't use it? We'll use all of it. Otherwise we would have to be returned to the- Yeah, there'll be new handicap crossing areas recommended, I'm certain of, with this. Just knowing the corridor, the $100,000 was a number that we could easily justify even without a study.
▶ 12:07 No question, I think we could use it. Yeah, that was a number that we felt very comfortable with. there will be more recommendations that then this program alone can implement i that's almost certain but just like complete streets there's the complete street project and the complete street program because police streets also gave us as a department the opportunity to um think differently and look differently and we were able to incorporate some of the discussion points of that program into our other projects this study will do the same to this corridor but it's uh it's clear that we uh we wouldn't be able to use the money for the schools no no you can't no just thought i'd ask you thank you madam chair
▶ 12:54 Shawn M. MacMaster: thank you madam chair thank you mr shena for being here this evening um even though this is only a modest amount of money um i do think this is a good opportunity for the city i especially am excited as the ward 5 alderman because this will make some needed improvements to the washington street corridor as you know chief lyon and i have been working with you on some issues that have been raised in that area i've been working closely with chief lyle in particular on safety issues relative to pedestrians on washington street and with you know the apartment complexes that were built there, 1,000 to 4,000 Washington Street. You have 46 and, excuse me, 47 and 37 Washington and 2 Washington. There are 465 housing units that are new to that neighborhood.
▶ 13:41 Shawn M. MacMaster: Based on my work with Chief Lyle, he and the department conducted a study to look at the number of pedestrians who are walking right now southbound on Washington Street to Oak Grove. And the study was done during a one-week period in August. It was August 13th. And the median average of pedestrians walking just during a two-hour time period between 7 a.m. and 9 a.m. was 275 people. Again, that's in August, and that's during a week presumably where people are on vacation. So if the casino isn't going to be encouraging residents to take the T to get on the shuttle, whether they walk there or they drive there, we're going to see more foot traffic, and we're going to see more traffic in general,
▶ 14:23 Shawn M. MacMaster: which I think makes it very clear that there are some improvements that we should be looking at. So I know you and I had a conversation about some of the concerns that I have, and I'd appreciate just if we remain in contact throughout the process. I appreciate the outreach that you did to me independently to talk about this. And in addition to the consultant, you know, to ensure that the residents of the ward have a voice in what's coming down the pipe. No, that's most certain. i mean this is in ward five totally so um and i probably envision a neighborhood meeting of some sort as well and if you get into the mbta and the issue of moving bus stops up and down that corridor those require public meetings as well the reason we're studying the t stops is
▶ 15:07 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: because some of the argument that we made is that some of these people will use the bus to get to the train to get to the ultimate work location um so we'll be looking at all of that as part of it but again yeah you're right it's a benefit i hear the same issues that you are now hearing in your award of pedestrian improvements and ways to more safely access the mbta station well thank you for coming before us this evening thank you madam chair thank you alderman lippert garabedian sure um thank you for being here mr shena and um for giving us some information about this I'm wondering if you've talked to other communities that are also going to be deploying some of these funds for their own analyses, or if you think that you'll be in touch with
▶ 15:56 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: them at all just to sort of bounce ideas off each other or hear about some of the innovations or solutions they're coming up with. No, we haven't yet. It's still early in that process. I think reaching out to Malden and Medford could be an option, but our community is still different and the type of impact that we argued is very different than each community argue their own impact obviously the closer you get better argument you have but yeah that is something that's something we could do at least reach them all them to see if they're implementing anything in and around their train station I think that would be a good idea and so far as we do share Oak Grove essentially with Malden and maybe they'll have some good ideas
▶ 16:35 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: or you will get you'll have some great ideas that would be worth sharing with with them for some consistency and learning from each other well it's definitely a good point something we'll consider okay and I'm wondering you mentioned that you're gonna work with us doing some traffic study will they also analyze to alderman McMaster's point other modalities of transportation so is you know is it Stantec are they looking only at sort of car and bus traffic or will they also be taking a look at people walking or biking people walking and biking is an absolute point of this study great it's one of the main points of this study to be honest with you because that's that's that's something we see happening more than people driving to the station yeah that's
▶ 17:24 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: that's right in their scope of work that's great do you think you also will look at street parking and where currently in these areas there is on street parking and the hours may differ but I've certainly talked to a few residents who live along Pleasant who talk about the safety issues that there are concerns that they have with the on street parking there for example no it is and that is one of the issues that Alderman McMaster and I along with Chief Lyle are still trying to work out along Pleasant Street right now okay what are the current restrictions are they being adhered to should they be changed and And, yeah, that's another thing that this study will absolutely look at. Great. That's really encouraging.
▶ 18:08 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: Yeah. I mean, I really appreciate that it sounds like you're thinking about ways to use these state resources to complement the work that's been going on with respect to the Complete Streets work and also, you know, having a long-term sort of view of this area and some of the challenges that have already existed that may only be exacerbated by this. so I'm pleased that you know hopefully this won't just be reviewed in isolation but instead is sort of looked at comprehensively and it sounds like that's the lens that you're using yes that's great thank you so much thank you Alderman Bewtra thank you thank you mr. Shana I sent you a barrage of emails on Saturday and I appreciate your time looking at these today anyway that was
▶ 18:57 Manisha Bewtra: main thing i wanted to say uh i think i'll also add um you know folks are interested on the mass gaming commission's website it outlines what all the surrounding and neighboring community agreements are i had the opportunity to work a little bit on this process so i'm a little familiar with it and melrose is considered a neighboring community versus a surrounding community the communities that were surrounding communities got probably a lot more in mitigation funds i'm pleased to learn that we get a hundred thousand um especially given that the terminus of the orange line is right here but um i just for i guess the public's edification um if you check out massgaming.com and look up uh surrounding and host and neighboring community agreements
▶ 19:46 you can find that info thanks for coming in tonight thank you alderman boyzo thank you Thank you. Thank you, John, for coming. Question, I mean, there's been discussions concerning on-street parking. Would this study make recommendations for a parking garage in the present area where the parking is for the T? I don't think it would go to that level. I mean, the T is the T property's T property, but it would look at on-street parking leading up to the station or in that entire run of Pleasant Street and Washington Street. Any change like that, we would have to propose of the traffic commission to implement just like some of our complete street initiatives require traffic commission approval at the end of the day but um yeah i don't think we'd look at that
▶ 20:34 Robert A. Boisselle: but we would look at on street parking in melrose things that we can regulate ourselves how many people are estimating at this time to use this service we don't know i don't know it's unknown they've not given a number a thousand or i mean they're estimating to be hiring three thousand people so that's a lot of people for three shifts yeah i'm not certain of that but when we heard of this plan we gave it a shot as a potential way to get some grant funding into melrose to make improvements and we were successful in that um to the level of a hundred thousand dollars so okay thank thank you john thank you madam chair thank you motion i'll recommend this order for passage second the motion i recommend for passage made by alderman mortimer seconded by alderman
▶ 21:22 Michael P. Zwirko: Boisselle any further discussion all in favor aye aye any opposed thanks thank you second item on our agenda this evening is order 2019-9 amending melrose revised ordinances chapter 177-12 snow and ice removal as set forth here in this order came to us from the Public Works Committee sponsored by President Search and Alderman Wright thank you madam chair I did speak with Alderman Wright earlier this afternoon he will try to make it here this evening he does have a work meeting that's causing him to be tardy this evening I was also hopeful at this time since we were still under suspension of the rules if folks had questions for Mr. Shenna he could answer them he may have stepped out for a moment with that being said I'll just do
▶ 22:24 Michael P. Zwirko: a quick review of where we're at with this this did start in the Public Works Committee as the chairwoman had just mentioned we had a meeting in September on this topic we were fortunate enough to not only receive some correspondence from members of our community but also at that meeting we did have some residents also voiced their opinion on this ordinance as well as this evening I don't exactly know what the disposition of this will be this evening my hope was and that the five weeks since we last discussed this the folks in this committee especially this being a committee of the whole would have had some time to reach out not only to residents but also department heads and any other members that they saw fit for this ordinance and any questions I
▶ 23:15 Michael P. Zwirko: myself in that time have spoken to two other communities regarding their enforcement policies and procedures and best practices in this regard I I do think and I still will state that I remain committed to hoping to see this pass in some form I think it was summed up beautifully this evening in the conclusion where paraphrasing if you choose not to shovel your sidewalk currently you don't have to and that creates a not only public safety issue but as was brought up by our speaker it's also an economic benefit to having these sidewalks cleared just a moment ago in the order that we approved the mitigation funds we're talking about improving which the areas of near Oak Grove orange line t station a focus of the traffic study is going to be
▶ 24:08 Michael P. Zwirko: specifically around multi modes of transportation the chairman excuse me the director of the DPW mr. Shenna stated that that would be pedestrian and bike traffic both pedestrian and bike traffic would certainly move more seamlessly throughout the city towards areas of public transportation if the sidewalks were cleared specific pedestrian traffic all that being said I am looking forward to tonight to some suggestions for altering this ordinance if folks see fit I'm looking for direction from this board since it is a committee of the whole as to where people stand I'm looking for any ideas that folks may have about doing this this is a very common ordinance in other communities it should be one here last meeting the director Shana stated that
▶ 24:57 Michael P. Zwirko: if this were to pass he would appreciate some time to educate the public and the residents about this new obligation the ordinance as written is set to take effect on January 1st of 2019 so I would like to move along with this I certainly don't have to do so tonight but I'm interested in here hearing what others have to say at this time I will yield and complete my opening remarks but I do reserve the right to jump in later if needed but I leave it to the rest of the body of this committee Thank You madam chair motion to retain this order on committee madam chair we have a motion to retain this order and committee made by Alderman Mortimer second seconded by Alderman tram and tozy on discussion Alderman tram and tozy Thank You madam chair one of the
▶ 25:48 John N. Tramontozzi: questions I had they notice in the ordinance and oftentimes when we talk about ordinances or changes to bylaws or whatever we look at the financial impact and this has financial impact none and I don't understand why because them I mean this this ordinance is punitive in nature which means then that people have right to due process if they're going to get uh fined uh ticketed for something that is required of them to do who's where's the review committee they're going to be appealing going to have court involvement it's the the police department is specifically authorized to enforce this you need a review committee and where's that coming from there's no there's been no discussion i haven't heard and i haven't i don't see any uh thing in our um the submissions
▶ 26:53 Peter D. Mortimer: here as to what it's going to cost to implement this ordinance maybe that's something that your chair can talk to mr schenner and or the legal counsel for the city i think we need to know that going forward as well so i have concerns about that thank you thank you alderman mortimer thank you very much i'm a big advocate of public safety of course quality of life is also very important what we found out when last mr shenna was here is that it's one to two percent of the houses with sidewalks that don't shovel That's a small amount. And I pointed out last time that this actually hasn't shown itself to be public safety. I've lived in Melrose for 50 years, and again, I've never heard of anyone getting hit in the street
▶ 28:05 Peter D. Mortimer: because they were walking the street due to a snowstorm. I pointed out six fatalities that we've had in the last ten years. they were all in the summer and in the fall so I'm not sure that this is public safety I'm concerned with texting speeding and those have been addressed by the police department and the traffic commission and before I continue I'd just like to say bicycles are not part of this discussion because bicycles by city ordinance are not allowed on the sidewalks of Melrose for obvious reasons sidewalks are for pedestrians bicycles have to go on the street which is another problem I have with how they keep making the streets more and more narrow but that's that's a different issue but bicycles are part of this
▶ 29:02 Peter D. Mortimer: conversation because bicycles aren't allowed in the street because they would hit pedestrians somebody's trucking along on a bicycle and I love to ride my bicycle and I don't ride it on the main streets anymore, take all the back roads. But this is really not public safety, it hasn't shown itself to be public safety. What I would recommend that is a more important aspect of public safety, when we found out at the last meeting, is that 31% of our sidewalks, excuse me, of our households, our frontages on properties, residential properties, don't have sidewalks. So those people have to walk in the street 12 months a year, not just in the winter. They have to walk in the street 12 months a year.
▶ 30:01 Peter D. Mortimer: And when it comes down to the winter, when there's a storm, it gets cleared up, it melts. Really, it's probably more like 12 days a year that people, because of winter storms, have to walk in the street, but in this 31% of our residential homes that don't have sidewalks in front of them, those people have to walk in the street all the time. So I think a better use of any funds that we might have for public safety would be to create more sidewalks. I have sidewalks that are broken up and need to be fixed in front of the Cochran House, We're finally getting some sidewalks in the Altamont Ave. We got a sidewalk that's being fixed at the corner of Gooch and Upham. But we don't have many sidewalks, and some of the sidewalks we have are in very, very tough condition.
▶ 30:55 Peter D. Mortimer: And that's the public safety, is we need more sidewalks. The communities, if you think of them, that have a shoveling ordinance, have over 90% sidewalk coverage. So they might go ahead and say, okay, let's make the people shovel these sidewalks. But I think that for Melrose, and we're discussing how this ordinance fits for Melrose, that's putting the cart before the horse. We need to have over 90% sidewalks and use the money, as Alderman Tramontozzi mentioned, the money that it would take to compel people to shovel those sidewalks. We need to have the sidewalks before we compel people to shovel those sidewalks. Because those people have to, the people, the 31% in those neighborhoods, they have to walk in the street 12 months a year, and again, bicycles aren't part of this conversation.
▶ 31:55 Peter D. Mortimer: Bicycles are not allowed on sidewalks by ordinance in Melrose for obvious and good reasons. Yeah, the six people who were killed in the last ten years, of course they were hit in the street because that's where people get hit. It would be a rare day and a rare sorrowful day when someone was hit on the sidewalk, but they were hit in the street in the summer and the fall. This would become, besides the points I just made, this would become a bureaucratic boondoggle. Who gets exceptions? How long does the exception last? But if you have a death in the family and you have to go out of town and a snowstorm hits, you get the warning. And I know we're supposed to be educational with this, but I have friends that I talk to all the time who live in Malden and
▶ 32:43 Peter D. Mortimer: suddenly they got a ticket in the mail, $50 ticket, you didn't shovel your sidewalk. So who gets the exceptions? What's the warning, as Alderman Tramontozzi mentioned? It could be a bureaucratic boondoggle. And we can use our public safety money to make more sidewalks in Melrose before we put the cart before the horse and set up an expensive enforcement apparatus. When they were here last time, the chief and the director of public works, whose departments are both out flat. They're stretched out beyond their resource sources and we said who's going to enforce this and they both pointed at the other one. they can't they don't have the resources to enforce this and DPW would rather use their resources to build more sidewalks I would venture to say so our public
▶ 33:43 Peter D. Mortimer: safety dollars and again it's not really public safety because no one's been hit it's a convenience new winter is a nuisance winter is a pain in the neck and some people who may be in favor of it with all due respect and concern for citizens they may find out that they wish they had been careful what they ask for because early in the morning you've got to get an early start you're off to work early you have to drop your kids off now you have to get back home and shovel before you go to work or you have to get home leave work early and get home and shovel or wake up early the next day and shovel at the latest and And for the 1%, I think we'd be better off spending our dollars on putting sidewalks on the 31% of residential frontages,
▶ 34:35 Monica C. Medeiros: residential frontages of properties that don't have sidewalks. That would be putting the horse before the cart rather than the cart before the horse. That would be a better use of the funds that we have. Thank you very much. Thank you. Alderman Medeiros. thank you I actually here is mr. Shana just in perfect timing and wondering since we're under suspension of the rules if he might join us I wanted to bring up one of the concerns or suggestions that I had had at the last meeting is that perhaps we need to look more at our snow shoveling routes and in particular we had resident at public comment talked to us about her experiences walking along Tremont Street and Brunswick Park and I have up on my
▶ 35:35 Monica C. Medeiros: computer screen which is in the ordinance is the map of the study that the Department of Public Works did for the storms over the period I'm looking particular at FY 18 the last winter that we just had and I see that on Tremont Street between between Melrose Street and you know there's there's one on each side between Melrose Street and Franklin Street where there was one house on each side that missed one storm and it looks like there's a little bit of activity down near West Emerson and Tremont Street I don't see any houses marked that didn't shovel for Brunswick Park at all and these routes are all sidewalk plow routes so how do we I'm wondering if you could sort of talk to you know how do we
▶ 36:42 Monica C. Medeiros: get to a point where we're you know we obviously you did a study as best you could and found only you know one house on each side that Tremont that didn't shovel and and that there was no problems at Brunswick place but obviously you know we're hearing from residents that there was more of an issue there and this is also a sidewalk plow route so could you sort of talk to and what I wonder is and I think it's something that is one of my concerns in this ordinance is that I think the ordinance is very subjective you know it's asking that we remove all snow and ice and all snow and ice is is quite a lot to remove in for the width of two people walking side by side which I think that's a very subjective you know answer and so for instance so what
▶ 37:34 did you use to say that the street was all cleared and was this study done before the sidewalk plow went out or after or I don't know if you can speak to that let's take the site so the studies were done after the sidewalk routes went out school doesn't reopen until the sidewalk moves go out the area that the resident spoke to is a very tricky area I agree I look at the complaint log every day multiple times a day after a storm that's typically what I do that area under the bridge is tricky to navigate we can't get machines underneath there we typically shovel it by hand or sometimes by snowblower there is a piece as you come under the bridge and back up the hill to go to Brunswick that's always an area that we're concerned about and we try to address it
▶ 38:27 as much as possible and as quickly as possible in terms before you continue in an area like that is it possible to go the width of two people I'm not sure if the sidewalk is that wide no sidewalks very narrow in that area in fact we worked with the MBTA to install a handrail under the bridge because the sidewalk was so narrow there I think that is there were a lot of exceptions to the rule when you look at the city in general I mean there's some areas between the sidewalks there's some areas with grass strips some areas with no grass strip with the sidewalks wider there are areas that have utility poles that narrow the pedestrian passage with it's very different it's as you navigate you know throughout the city in that regard so we try to do our best when it
▶ 39:21 comes to the sidewalks as far as the process we review it every year we started last week internally we look with our operators we we travel the routes right now in the fall we look for areas that may have changed improvements that we may have made over the years we look at you know utility poles that maybe were replaced and narrowings that have shrunk where we're not gonna be able to get the machine through we're in the process of doing that the superintendent that I meet and we review we look at school needs things that she hears through her PTO s and principles so that's all part of the process of what we do in the fall before we go forward and early December and go public with what our sidewalk routes are going to be and so you know in thinking about
▶ 40:14 Monica C. Medeiros: okay how does an area that's had the sidewalk plow go by then become unplowed and that you know and I think I spoke at the last meeting where I've had this experience where the sidewalk plow sometimes has gone by or we've cleaned up the whole sidewalk on our own and then sometimes you know trying to get by the snowballs the snow banks fall in completely on the sidewalk and you have to go back to start all over again which is not the easiest thing in the world to do and sometimes I would say close to impossible with the icy snow but that might be one what reason that happens another reason might be that people are snow blowing their driveways and re-blocking the sidewalks and that would not be allowable under the ordinances today if that's what they're doing
▶ 41:05 correct yeah you can't take private snow put it onto the public way so a lot of people is that a lot of people that snow blow onto the street or hire private vendors to plow their driveways and they're plowing out onto the road that technically is a violation of the ordinance well we don't go around enforcing it but if people are if people are totally making the road impassable and we catch them or or they block a sidewalk route that's in a school route we tend to we tend to knock on the door in those instances but yeah you're right the existing ordinances do cover things like people plowing out onto the street or snow blowing out onto the street so if a resident comes across an area that's that's the
▶ 41:49 situation and you can tell that you know there's no bloated up and you know and police chief lyle is very good and the melrose police department are very good at helping us with that sometimes all it takes is the police to drive by especially that some of the stuff happens at the wee hours of the night when it's dark so you know police come by with the lights the next thing you know it stops um but yeah that those are the type of things we do look at those are the type of things that do cause problems today and it's usually after a storm after we've completed ninety percent of our cleanup and for areas that are corners and your policy and philosophy and I think what's been in practice the last
▶ 42:33 few years is to to really shovel and not shovel but to cart away a lot of the snow that the city has been doing that on on corners sometimes that takes a little while right we try to we really try to do that as much as possible it's not an ordinance it's not a proceed but it's it's what we believe is right as a department we just don't say okay pack the stuff let's move on we try to keep the community moving and we realize that these corners some of which we create need to be addressed and those we have we you know with the right equipment and manpower and a place to bring the snow to you know we're able to address it and Some people are very patient in that regard, and we can, with a little bit of time, we can make these problems go away when they fall.
▶ 43:23 Monica C. Medeiros: Thank you. You know, I just, I want to just say this again. This is some of my concerns. Again, I feel that this is a little bit subjective about, you know, who, what is two people wide? What is all of the snow and ice? You know, obviously, in some storms, it's almost impossible to get all of the ice off. I think this is something that could end up being selectively enforced instead of fairly enforced for if I'm going to support an ordinance I want it to be fairly enforced I want everybody in this you know this side of the room to be treated the same way as the people on that side of the room to be treated the same way as the people who are out and not in this room and when we have something like this and the idea of what's subjective or if we're waiting
▶ 44:12 Monica C. Medeiros: for a resident or a neighbor to call and you know tattle on their next-door neighbor or on somebody on their walking route then well somebody else you know gets away with not doing it then we're not being fair and the only way to be fair about this is to enforce it with everyone and I don't think we have the manpower or the funds to do that and I you know we've talked about public safety and I am waiting for some information from Melrose specific but I did want to share with you a study that was done by the University of Montreal Hospital and Research Center where they studied a hundred and twenty eight thousand heart attack cases between 1981 and 2014 and more than 68,000 people who died and so this was this is mostly Canada because they get a lot of snow
▶ 45:09 Monica C. Medeiros: that's where they studied but they found that men were 16% more likely to have a heart attack and 34% more likely to die from a heart attack when at least eight inches of snow fell and you know I think that's pretty significant and we we look at things you know for a public safety perspective and you know that's those are some you know 34% more likely to die is is a big deal and you know if we're looking out for public safety thankfully we haven't had any instances and I think we can do a lot more to address you know that 2% of the population that is not being neighborly and not doing the right thing by you know maybe having a public more of a public outreach campaign and perhaps you know really more not necessarily having to be the police but maybe being some of
▶ 46:10 Monica C. Medeiros: us to you know knock and see if there's some reason that that person can't shovel because there might very well be people who are away people who are sick people who've had a death in the family and I think we could address this you know use more of the funds that would be otherwise used for enforcing this ordinance to do things like get the snow out of the corners you know and in a way and to make those routes safer to do some maybe some follow-up on the side well on the snowplow roots or expand them into areas that are more pedestrian and MBTA routes thank you thank you very much we do have to in accordance with With the rules of the Board of Aldermen adjourn or recess this meeting, we do have other aldermen in queue to speak on this order.
▶ 46:57 Jennifer L. Lemmerman: However, the full board meeting must start within 30 minutes of its posted time, which has passed. Motion to recess, Madam Chair. Point of order. Motion to recess, made by Alderman Mortimer, seconded by Alderman Boyce-Zalem, discussion, President Virchow. There's a motion already on the floor to hold this in committee, so I'd like to dispose of that motion before we take care of the motion to recess. the makers of the original motion, which I believe, Alderman Mortimer, you made the motion. I did. It was seconded by Alderman Tramontozzi. It would need to be withdrawn by both of those members, otherwise we would need to vote on it. Point of order, Madam Chair. I think a motion to recess is an intervening order.
▶ 47:35 Peter D. Mortimer: I think we can leave the motion on the floor, because if we deal with that motion, that will forestall any further discussion. And if we're going to just take a vote on the motion to retain the order of the committee, which is fine with me, then we may as well just have a motion to adjourn, which is also fine with me. I just want to make sure we understand, a motion to adjourn is always in order. Always in order. But I did see other people wanted to speak, and I certainly want to afford them that chance. So, just so we know what we're dealing with here, President's work over. I'm sorry if we're kind of talking a little rough in committee, but I do want to give everybody a chance to speak. There are other Aldermen in queue.
▶ 48:18 Michael P. Zwirko: Yeah, so I think if just a motion to recess would leave the motion to retain this order in committee open. And I think that might be okay if that's all right with the President. I'm not the Chair of this committee. Okay, sorry. Or if that's all right with you, Madam Chair. I would, yes. I having other aldermen in queue would be it would be good to let them speak so we will take a vote on the motion to recess all in favor aye opposed we're now in recess good evening about 820 this evening on Monday October 15th this is a full board meeting of the Melrose Board of Aldermen this meeting is being recorded in accordance with the open meeting law it is available on the City's website as well as MMTV on TV as well as MMTV3.org for recording at a
▶ 49:16 later date at this time I would ask the clerk to please call the roll Alderman Bewtra here Alderman Boisselle here Alderman Forbes Alderman Lemmerman here Alderman Lipper Garabedian here Alderman McMaster here Alderman Medeiros here Alderman Mortimer. Here. Alderman Tramontozzi. Here. Alderman Wright. Here. President Zwirko. Here. At this point if everyone could stand and join me in pledging allegiance to the flag. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. we come to public comment this evening after if we do go forward I would like to recess quickly as we do have a department head here so at this time I
▶ 50:50 Appropriations Committee chair would entertain a motion to recess so move recess has been recess motion to recess has been made by alderman Mortimer it has been seconded by Alderman Lipper Garabedian all those in favor aye any opposed we are recessed good evening i call back to order the meeting of the appropriations committee we were in the process of discussion on the second item on our agenda which was order 2019-9 amending melrose revised ordinances chapter 177-12 snow and ice removal as set forth here in we do have alderman in the queue and next up we have alderman fuchsia thank you thank you you mr. Jenna I have a few questions a lot of which I as I mentioned sent over email but I know I sent them pretty late and would like to just ask some of them
▶ 52:03 now so just to start with from your perspective how can we improve upon sidewalk clearance during the winter both on the sidewalk routes that the city clears now but also other areas I'd be a fool to not accept any help I mean I think that's part of what we do is try to make the community more accessible after a storm. We don't live in an area of the state or of the country that, it's only snow, let's just stay home. While people do work from home, I think there is a much higher expectation that the community would be quickly brought back to normal conditions in a shorter period of time. over at least my career in public works that window has dwindled and people do rely on public transportation people do walk and the focus on sidewalks has grown over the last 10 15 years
▶ 53:09 Manisha Bewtra: 15 16 years ago was something we did now it's something that the community really depends on whether it's our kids walking to school or it's our residents going to work ultimately it's a decision of the sport we want to do with the ordinance we're here one of our main missions is to return Melrose to as functional of a community as possible after a after a storm and we'll utilize whatever tools we have in place to try to make that happen um what would be the impact of adding additional um say one of the things i noticed when i looked at the sidewalk clearing map was that there are certain segments where it's only one side of the road and i think as i pointed out in my email one that i'm familiar with and i think the one that um the resident who came earlier to during public
▶ 54:08 Manisha Bewtra: comment also referenced are areas around the schools where again there are sidewalk clearing routes nearby and in some cases I think some of the segments she referenced me have been on a sidewalk clearing route one I'm familiar with is very close like across the street but on the side where there's actually a crosswalk it's not part of the sidewalk clearing route so I just want to better understand what the impact would be in both from a cost perspective as well as sort of delay of school start time in terms of adding additional routes there's a there's a fine line you have to balance there we the route is covered by one individual in the department with one machine we currently have three machines that cover four routes the downtown route actually
▶ 54:56 is covered by a bobcat and then we clean it up with one of the sidewalk tractors I think we're well equipped to cover four routes from an equipment perspective and manpower is is there right now in terms of adding tool that's something that we look at every year we tweak more than we add but i think that again reverting back to our prior discussion i think complete streets has given us a new tool to look at and today i started talking a little bit internally with our staff at public works about what we could overlay what we can compare from that perspective to be honest with you complete streets just finished last year we never really went that direction so appreciate the comment and the insight you provided in that email
▶ 55:41 to look at it in that regard because you're right i mean if there's a crosswalk and if there's a crosswalk in a certain part of the route and the route's not getting you to the crosswalk that route should get you to the crosswalk in terms of one side versus the other some some again the thought and a lot of that is go up one side cross go into another street down another side it's just you know at least try to get to as many streets as we could with the route but sometimes it's also utility poles it's also segments of sidewalks that didn't exist at least at the time the sidewalk route was put together so sometimes it's there's hardships on the along this along the the other side of the street that keep us on one side and trust me i find out when
▶ 56:30 Manisha Bewtra: we go to the wrong side and start getting the complete that you know we tear upside grass and that's so that's that's why the roots became what they were all the time i mean the roots have been here as long as i've been here and that's a little just a good amount of time it's really interesting to learn that over your time here there are more people walking and more people using transit which i think is a reflection a positive reflection on the walkability of our community and also justifies our complete streets program i think one thing i've been thinking about is in addition to kind of all the things you said are um doing that transit overlay because i think you know there there's some sections like um i'm like pointing to my screen because i'm imagining it
▶ 57:15 Manisha Bewtra: on my screen but um there's sections of like the east side of main street um closer to oak grove and some other areas like along transit routes that i recall getting kind of complaints on last winter and i again wonder if adding those may be worthwhile in light of our complete streets policy that said i understand there's probably a cost and a time factor um with those i think the other thing i was wondering is you know maybe more clarity for the folks along the sidewalk routes um clearing routes in terms of what their responsibilities still are um because i think if there's snow falling back on the sidewalk as a as a homeowner or you know as somebody who lives adjacent to one of those routes understanding that knowing what the policy is i think just
▶ 58:10 Manisha Bewtra: having more communication might be my might be worthwhile because as i think i mentioned at the last meeting when i moved here i assumed that i got my sidewalk cleared because i was on the bus route and so i think just again i know you've put out communications before but it's just like a reminder to us to be helping with that um i think my concerns a lot of which i stated probably at the last meeting are just sort of that potential inequity of having some routes that are um cleared and others that are not by the city um i'm not i i'm very torn on on this i'm sort of if you were to ask me sort of point blank would you support a snow and ice removal ordinance in melrose my first gut reaction would be like what we don't already have this sort of fine and fee structure in place
▶ 59:03 Manisha Bewtra: for um as as introduced by president Search and alderman wright um but on the other hand i think my my concern is that that equity piece and the potential administrative burden so i don't know if you have any other thoughts in regards to um the administrative aspect of this i know this is again we talked about it sort of with you as well as chief lyle but yeah i mean i think i said it the last meeting and we're not an enforcement agency we're um when it snows our job is to again make this community as functional as possible and as short of a window as time obviously maintaining costs and controlling costs and in making sure we run an efficient operation do we take it and like we don't we don't take it we don't enforce but we do observe and based on
▶ 59:57 On our observations, we make recommendations and we try to be as proactive as possible. I always tell, at meetings, we always say, hey, listen, let's find the problem before the problem finds us. That's something that we do consistently, but we're not an enforcement agency and if this ordinance were to pass, I don't think our department would be the right department to enforce. department is the problem is the problem solver you know throw the problem my way we'll find you a solution or we'll go do it ourselves if we have to but um that's not some enforcing is really not something i don't think that we should be doing nor we staff to do right now thank you um i'm curious are you aware of other communities that have a similar sidewalk clearing program is that
▶ 1:00:51 Manisha Bewtra: something typical or does it make us pretty unusual or do you have any there are some communities that have the ordinances i don't think the enforcement is in public works i'm not certain i mean that where there are also routes that are cleared by the city or town yeah most communities most communities have something like that okay so that's helpful um i think my last point that i had raised to a number of um city staff was regarding a snow angels program a number of communities well not a number i've found out about a few neighborhoods in boston as well as i think swamp scott have instituted something called a snow something called a snow angels program which seemed like they were either in the case of boston um initiated by city
▶ 1:01:36 Manisha Bewtra: counselors in boston which they have a different sort of system than we have here in melrose and then although not to say we couldn't do something like that as the board of aldermen potentially um and in swamp scott i think it was like a private organization but i know i think in the past the mayor's office has put out a list of snow shovelers and it's just sort of been on my mind it's like maybe even if we pass this ordinance with the um the fine structure if we supplement it with the communications from city hall as well as potentially something akin to a snow angels program which is basically a way for residents to sign up um particularly if they're you know seniors or um have another need uh that that would be something
▶ 1:02:27 cool for us to kind of again repackage if it's already something we've been doing or um bolster um anyway any other thoughts based on some of the things i i mentioned no the sidewalk routes were always driven by elementary schools and high school middle school and getting kids to school the fact that we now have complete streets and it's something new is something that we should overlay and I think that was one of the that was the highest point that I took out of that correspondence you said you know now that we have the tool let's use it and and that is something we're going to do that's actually something we we're going to start doing right away in terms of blending these routes because it's very good points you have to address
▶ 1:03:14 Francis X. Wright Jr.: all pedestrians thank you thank you mr shenna thanks madam chairman thank you alderman wright thank you madam chair um as one of the co-makers of this order i i brought this because i hear from people in the community parents who have to walk the children to school people who walk to the bus stop people who walk to Cedar Park in Wyoming will walk or ride their bikes to Oak Grove throughout the year I know people who ride bikes into Boston and Cambridge throughout the year but they're not able to get there they found you know they may be new to our community in the last 10 years but But what they're finding is they move from communities where sidewalks had some type, where cities and towns had some type of enforcement for cleaning of sidewalks.
▶ 1:04:19 Francis X. Wright Jr.: And that isn't always true here. It's great if you live on a sidewalk route that gets plowed by DPW. They do a great job. But in my neighborhood, if I live on Conant Street, I've got to travel four or five blocks before I get to one of those streets. And I'm sure that's true throughout the city. all i've heard is from people in the community is positive things about this proposal i'm not saying it's perfect as written but i'm just saying other communities seem to be able to do this to assume selective enforcement to presume that we're going to use it inappropriately or not not use it fairly is to presume the worst about our fellow residents and city staff and I don't think that's the case I heard talk about using the resources
▶ 1:05:12 Francis X. Wright Jr.: instead to build sidewalks I would love to see sidewalks put in where people want them but I don't see where the the amount of money that's going to have to be invested to pass this ordinance and enforce it in those few cases where it needs to be enforced is going to create any type of available funding for new sidewalks throughout the city we as a city need to do need to look at enforcement as something that the then that's important we don't say don't pull over the speeders because you can't pull them all over we don't say we don't need a law for this because most people don't rob banks but for some reason we don't want to pass something like this because most people shovel their sidewalks or because not
▶ 1:06:11 Francis X. Wright Jr.: everyone will get a ticket if they didn't i don't think those are good reasons i want to be able to see the young people who live in ward three be able to walk to the high school walk to the middle school walk to the lincoln walk to the roosevelt i want to see the people who live in my neighborhoods in my ward be able to walk to the bus stops on West Wyoming walk to see the park walk to Oak Grove I want to see the elderly people who live in Ward three whether they're in the Levi Gould whether they're in the cephalo or any other elderly communities in Ward three or throughout Ward three the homes where elderly and not so elderly like myself live that we can walk downtown or we can walk to our neighbors to check on them without having to get into the road
▶ 1:07:11 Francis X. Wright Jr.: there are more and more vehicles on the street more and more people own cars more and more vehicles driving throughout the city as they do throughout the region as they do throughout the country so it's just a question of safety and it's a question of common sense it's a it's a question about assuming the best about our community i don't see this city going crazy selectively enforcing the ordinances and the laws that they're they're bound to enforce so i don't see it going to happen here so i'm going to stand behind the people who would like to feel like they can safely leave their homes as as mr shenner said and get to their jobs or get downtown or get to their doctor's appointment or get their kids to daycare and support an ordinance like this it
▶ 1:08:03 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: doesn't have to be this but like this because i think it's important i think if other communities in our area can make it work then we can make it work without presuming the worst about ourselves thank you thank you alderman liquor garabedian thank you um mr shen thank you for being here um i'm wondering um so the sidewalk plow routes are really useful to see and they're online you mentioned that you revisit them annually and you make some tweaks here and there um i'm wondering um if if you're aware of any if there is a sense that that's going to happen this fall moving into the winter yes okay and would you then update the documents that are online is that how it would work or we do we do we updated online and then before the first storm
▶ 1:08:59 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: and typically every storm after that we we always link now with social media we can link the location of the routes on the website oh that's great um you also mentioned that that you try to prioritize corners i don't know if that's as part of the sidewalk plowing or that's after you've gotten the roots plowed you go back around and handle some of the corners can you just um that's not part of either program so what we do is we we plow and within our operation there are obviously priorities of what we address first and second but once we're in parallel with plowing towards the end of the plow operation the sidewalk tractors go out sometimes they're out for the entire storm if we know it's going to be a large storm they start their route when their
▶ 1:09:50 routes are complete then we go into another portion of of our program which has really evolved over the last six or seven years which is the removal portion where we go in and clear sidewalks now these sidewalks are sometimes along these routes but they're areas of of heavy crossing And these have come about either through schools or through calls from parents or crossing guards, police, areas that we may get a call from that people can't see coming out of. So there are some on main roads that we do right away now. We keep our own list of intersections that we clear. And then we keep a list as calls come in, and then we go out and look at – there may be things we see ourselves when we're out doing it.
▶ 1:10:39 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: that we address some require just the replacement of snow within that area and some we just haul out so the prioritization of those particular intersections and corners sounds like you you already maintain a list right now which could be made public I suppose or you could consider that and it's based on reports that you've gone in anecdotally over time as well as your own on your cruise observations when they're out I'm assuming it's also that that would correlate with sort of trafficked hot more highly trafficked areas both by foot or by car that sort of thing yeah yeah that's that's what we do and it's really areas that we see a lot of crossing in the morning pedestrian crossing in the morning today an example is Melrose or Tremont Street
▶ 1:11:32 that four-way cross there gets cleared the down the crossings downtown the crosswalks to bump up crosswalks downtown we're going to have to do something with the new drop-off area at the high school to make sure that we can get kids into that and paint cars into that drop-off now that's something that will get on to that list most certain this one upper mid Ashcroft is another critical crossing on Upham Street we make sure that we clear that and there's enough room for people to gather and cross those are things that we do right away and then and then there are then we get into the neighborhoods and calls will come in from the neighborhoods or we'll get feedback or or we'll go out and check something and see it ourselves and those are things that we continue to
▶ 1:12:15 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: do two three days four days after a storm what about one of the earlier public hearings and also I think through an email we've heard from folks who live at Upham and Lebanon, for example, both of which may be are streets that you are plowing. I know Lebanon at least is, and I'm wondering if Upham. Maybe not. But what about that intersection? There was a gentleman who mentioned buying the most expensive snow plow or push plow he could find, and it wasn't going to take care of the snow banks that were there. Upham at Lebanon is one that we have occasionally done as well, where we'll go in at night. Now, when I say when we clear a corner, don't clear 60 feet up from the corner on either side we go in and we clear a substantial area
▶ 1:13:03 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: where people again can gather safely look out and cross but people at corn at the corners do have two frontages and it it's something that they have to deal with and although we may take a big chunk of it out we do sometimes leave a lot behind okay and then the study that you did a couple years ago that showed that an overwhelming majority of Melrose residents were shoveling their sidewalks what what was sort of you the what would you consider to have been shoveled versus not shoveled so we what we did is an attempt an attempt to clear a path to allow someone to pass was it we need to go out with a tape measure made it four feet wide five feet wide but if someone made an attempt that a child could walk through and basically not have to go
▶ 1:14:02 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: into the street they got the check mark as having attempted the plow attempted to clear so I think it was wonderful that you did that and it's helpful to have that data I will say that my own personal experience is that more than four percent of my neighbors in my neighborhood i think um that the sidewalks were not very easily traversed since i've lived here um but so but that's just one anecdote um and then just to confirm dpw is responsible for the sidewalks around our public buildings for example the fire stations the city hall that's for our existing ordinance okay um and do you have a time frame in which you attempt to get all of those cloud I know we had a email from the last winter where someone couldn't get past the Tremont fire station for
▶ 1:14:58 example yeah I think that was just missed that one instance but we try to get them the municipal buildings we at least clear a path before the building opens we may go back a couple of nights later to do an actual clearing of that area the schools we typically will do them a hundred percent before school reopens some some areas along park frontages are done it with the roots and then the others we go back after the fact to do as well so there are some there are some public frontage areas that we do later on but the majority are done now either with a route or before building opens great and for the upcoming winter if someone has a safety concern who should who was it your department that should be contacted or a public safety department who's the who's
▶ 1:15:51 on first there's an issue with anything to do with snow snow removal people can contact us at our public works at city of Melrose dot org email send us an email they could send us a picture pictures worth a thousand words sometimes in terms of trying to explain a situation to us we'll try to help or try to not make it happen helpful reminders are always good year to year um you know even people live on dead end streets sometimes you know that well is there any way two years ago you put the snow on the left and last year you put it on the right and you know it's harder for us to get out so we will try to accept as much constructive criticism as we can and but you can email us you can call us at our main number and if just you know tell me you have some
▶ 1:16:39 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: information you want to pass along the snow and you know either pass it to our operations manager our assistant director or even me okay that's really helpful thank you for being even if they want to just give it to you any aldermens just pass it along okay we'll take it that's great thank you for being so accessible I'm not sure where what the will of the committee will be or if have a vote tonight. I am principal and supportive of this concept. I think in a city that asks our families to figure out ways to get their children to school every day, in a city that boasts three commuter rail stations and is adjacent to the MBTA and that wants to encourage people to use public transportation for the local economy for their own personal health for the
▶ 1:17:36 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: environment it makes sense to figure out ways that families and commuters and our seniors can live safely in our city and go about their daily lives and I think that some of the details in the ordinance and as we've discussed before could be revisited for example requiring all snow and ice to be removed as my colleague alderman Medeiros mentioned that may be something that we could modify I think also one thing I discussed before was that as currently written it's required to be addressed within oh I think it actually had been it looks like this has been amended since last time I looked at I apologize that we've changed it to within six daylight hours after snow has ceased to fall as opposed to as we before so I think there's some details we could
▶ 1:18:38 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: continue to discuss but in principle I I'm in favor of this and I just thought for the good of the order I'd share just some of the scan that I've done on other municipality. So Arlington makes homeowners responsible and they have a fine. Belmont makes homeowners responsible and they also have a fine. Danvers has a requirement with a fine. Medford has a requirement with a fine. Newburyport has this ordinance with a fine. Newton has the ordinance, no fine. Wakefield has an ordinance, no fine. Woburn has an ordinance with a fine. So these are some communities that have similarities to ours or are nearby And they have seen fit to demonstrate their commitment to public safety by having bylaw or in an ordinance
▶ 1:19:35 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: That addresses this issue and I think it makes sense for us to really consider supporting this thank you for clarification we have not voted on any amended language on this order so this order has not been amended perhaps our next up in QA presidents worker who's a maker of the order can provide thank you and can I ask for one other I've apologized I don't know if it's proper to make a motion to add to the record the snowplow routes that the city has posted online but I think that could be useful to include in our packet for people to be able to review at home uh if you would like to to make a motion to that effect uh we same discussion as earlier we do have a motion on the table currently still i don't believe this is an intervening motion as the last
▶ 1:20:28 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: was point of uh information um the maps that are included in the order do include the snowplow routes they're the ones with the arrows the black arrows it's overlaid this one does yes I think that that suffices I mean the the four sections so that the city has placed on the website for maps with different sections of the city but presumably this particular document can also you can zoom in on it is is that correct mr. Shana that someone at home could be able to see this more clearly because it's really hard to see it when you print it out as opposed to these four sections are slightly easier to see I think when printed out but I think it probably suffices so thanks thank you thank you madam chair before I get into
▶ 1:21:36 Michael P. Zwirko: the comments I just want to say thank you to director Shanna for being here this evening and also to the men and women of your department I think they do an exemplary job every year and I know I said that last time but I want to reiterate that again so appreciate the comments this evening when I brought this forward in September with alderman Rita I was under no false delusions of grandeur I know that this had come up for the board twice before it had failed twice before those margins were getting slimmer but the issue still persists my hope as we go through this legislative process was that everybody would get involved and as Alderman Wright alluded to earlier no it's not perfect I even said that five weeks ago and I asked I pleaded for the help of the members of
▶ 1:22:29 Michael P. Zwirko: this board to amend and think about and make this a workable ordinance maybe you don't want snow to be removed from sidewalks that's fine you're just against the principle of this order that's fine but if you have an issue with a process to appeal this file an amendment if you have an issue on the subjectivity of this file an amendment maybe you want it to be four feet maybe you want it to be five feet file an amendment I mean we're here to work through this that's the whole point of this I mean this is not rigid this is the legislative process I think us rather than other you know legislative boards across the country we're here to work through this we've heard from commuters we've heard from residents we've heard from department heads we've
▶ 1:23:13 Michael P. Zwirko: heard from each other I mean if if you if you're going to say that things need to be changed to this let's change them five weeks ago when we discussed this the hope was is that you would take time and bring something forward to to make these changes I just don't think that we've moved forward on this in any meaningful way there's a motion on the floor to retain this in committee happy to retain this in committee I just would like to see let's get some movement here I think we're close to getting something maybe ultimately this fails okay it fails but let's not least make a valiant effort to move this forward if people have concerns I mean that's that's the whole point of this process it's to be
▶ 1:23:57 Michael P. Zwirko: collaborative it's to you know point out maybe discrepancies I think there's there's been a lot of comments tonight about enforcement but at the one hand we're saying that this is a solution in search of a problem and then on the other hand we're saying that they're you know the the enforcement's wrong well you can't have it both ways either is a problem or it isn't and there's either an enforcement component or there's not and I mean I always thought that this would be enforceable by the police department I did not think that members of the DPW would be an enforcement agency even I alluded five weeks ago that the inspection inspectional division it doesn't have jurisdiction over this so that needs to be amended you know I used to work in arbitrations
▶ 1:24:38 Michael P. Zwirko: and there's the old saying with arbitrations that you know you've won an arbitration if you've left and both parties hate each other so you know I'm fully aware that I'm not going to bat a thousand on this that the way that it's been drafted is not going to be the final version that's fine but at the end of the day I think we have an obligation as alderman Wright stated for many reasons of our commuters and children getting to school as well as the elderly to remove snow from sidewalks and yes not everybody has a sidewalk in Melrose I understand that there's a long and sordid history as to why some people have sidewalks and some people don't and you know there's some people that live on corners that have hedges and others don't I mean we're talking about
▶ 1:25:18 Michael P. Zwirko: inequity but it's there's if you if you own a property that has a sidewalk that sidewalk should be cleared it's to me this this entire discussion comes down boils down to that there's it's no more it's no less this is not unique to Melrose there there are concerns that some people have I don't think that the enforcement agents are going to be subjective in this I think it's I think it's pretty clear this is not something that we're seeking to impose on our neighbors we you know we have issues about noise ordinances we have issues about running you know lawnmowers snowblowers at certain hours you know hopefully this is one of those things where the chronic offending properties would be at issue the resident that came here earlier this evening herself stated
▶ 1:26:15 Michael P. Zwirko: she knows exactly when it snows who's going to clear and who isn't I would think that those properties that don't clear would be subjected to this ordinance I don't think that the men and women of the Melrose Police Department are subjective when they enforce anything if anything I think that they're completely objective you know I appeal to this board once more if we are going to retain this in committee this evening that we offer amendments that can hopefully get us over the goal line here and put this ordinance on the books if not explain that you're just principally against this that's fine maybe you're just against it I was hopeful that we would have more movement on this this evening I appreciate the comments that have been
▶ 1:26:54 Michael P. Zwirko: made I appreciate the work of all the department heads and and my colleagues in looking at this but we do we are we are approaching winter with every day that passes and should this pass the director would like some time to educate the public on the in the new obligations of the residents so I would ask that if we are going to retain this in committee that the next time this comes out this is put forward with an up-or-down vote hopefully with amendments thank you madam chair thank you madam chair mr. Shana the information you provided us in the form of the analysis map and the spreadsheet it's particularly helpful to me, having not been part of a similar conversation that occurred in 2015. My question is, in 2015 when a similar order was filed, or between 2015 when a similar
▶ 1:27:53 Shawn M. MacMaster: order was filed and today, has there been an affirmative step by the city at any point to your knowledge to conduct outreach to the habitual offenders? can't help but look at the the information that has been provided and it's pretty clear that there are 8 586 parcels in the city of which only 58 didn't shovel during the two storms in question and i just can't help but wonder if there was any effort to try to reach those 58 homeowners no we haven't done any targeted outreach and can you talk about what that might look like from a resource perspective i remember a few years ago there was an effort to educate the public about recycling and i would expect that as it relates to those who were co-mingling recyclables
▶ 1:28:47 presumably more than 58 households were doing that what did that look like in terms of outreach and from a resource perspective and how would that compare contrast with similar outreach that might occur prior to us considering legislation it would be it would be um it would be similar what we did is we have a door knocker of what you should do what you shouldn't do but in that case it's based on um you know our regulations so right now we don't have anything to go out and regulate we could we could put a door knocker out so you should shovel do the right thing but it's really what messages or else what whereas the with recycling when you put the door knocker you know do the right thing or else we're not going to pick up your trash or we can't pick
▶ 1:29:40 Shawn M. MacMaster: up your trash you know cardboard commingling of items those are all those are all things that we just can't do in the industry anymore hence the door knocker works and um and and people have responded positively to the door knocker in in that regard um if you take a similar approach in with snow obviously we we could um identify the areas and you know we could we could go that door knocker route if that's something that the board wants to do i mean i would think it might be the first natural step in making people aware i mean i'm sure they already know they're they may may not get their mail for a few days, making it very clear that it will impair our first responders' ability to access their property if there was a medical emergency or if there
▶ 1:30:26 Shawn M. MacMaster: was a fire, that it's inconvenient to their neighbors. I would think that it might be a way to compel people to comply as a first step, and then seeing what that data looks like perhaps next year. That's just my inclination is to see if there's any type of outreach that we can do as a first step considering that there hasn't been any since 2015. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you. Alderman Medeiros for the second time. Thank you. I wanted to address some of the comments about subjectivity. Now at the end of our last committee meeting when we discussed this at length, Alderman Zwirko, President Zwirko, who is one of the makers of this order, had suggested that this might be like recycling and it in fact is very much different than recycling in
▶ 1:31:15 Monica C. Medeiros: that recycling we have people who pick up trash who go up and down these routes as a regular part of their job already we also have a recycling committee that has helped and has volunteered doing a lot of the outreach and I think that's a a key difference than with this he also likened this to in particular a noise ordinance and said that and said particularly that there would not be snow police going up and down the street to make sure people weren't actually following along with this ordinance or not that in fact they he spoke with the chief of police and said that hey chief you know do you go around looking for people who have loud music on the weekend no but if you get a call do you respond to it yes and this would be that like that now I'm going to tell you
▶ 1:32:09 Monica C. Medeiros: there's a lot of people who have loud music who don't always get called on by the police and it's the same kind of thing that that does lead to people not not every single person who has their radio up loud is getting a noise ordinance visit or ticket and not every person who doesn't shovel their snow is going to get a noise a snow shoveling ticket and it would be by the police because they would be the enforcement piece of this who we heard from Chief Lyle just does not have the resources to go out and inspect every street we see the difference and so that's a very different approach that one maker of the order took to looking at this to saying we're not going to find everybody and we don't expect the police to be ticketing everybody who doesn't comply versus I
▶ 1:33:04 Monica C. Medeiros: think Alderman Wright thinks that we probably would be doing so so that's within the makers of the order two different opinions or it seems unclear to me anyway and you know and I think it leads to the same fact that we had you know a resident here earlier today who clearly you know shared her experiences and found that she was not able to clearly pass up and down the sidewalk But these are the same sidewalks that are sidewalk plow rooted, and the city has already been through them. We see that some of the discrepancy might be because, you know, when Mr. Shen and his team has gone out to see if somebody was obeying the law or doing, you know, really clearing the snow, he found that if somebody made an attempt, that qualified.
▶ 1:33:55 Monica C. Medeiros: but that that in and of itself may not be and is not what this ordinance calls for this ordinance calls for all snow and ice to be removed it doesn't call for someone to have made an attempt it calls for all snow and ice to be removed so that's what you know that's the reasons why you're seeing some residents I think say that geez you know I still have to go over a snowbank even it on a route that's already been cleared by a sidewalk plow that isn't showing up on our map as having been a problem household i actually think the best of this community i think that by and large this is two percent of the households and many of which if you look on the map are households that are not in very well trafficked areas that haven't shoveled
▶ 1:34:42 Monica C. Medeiros: we really are talking a very small percentage of people that aren't doing you know aren't doing what they should as good neighbors and there may be other circumstances for it I think certainly we as a community could go and do some outreach and try to find out the reasons why this is happening and it's not necessarily to say hey part of it is do you know that public safety might not be able to access your house but some of it might be outreach to say did you know that there is a list of snow shovelers available on the mayor's blog and people who volunteered to say that they will shovel snow either for a fee or as volunteers I think we could do a lot more of that as outreach and I without this ordinance at all frankly so that's where I am today and I just thank you
▶ 1:35:40 Francis X. Wright Jr.: Thank you. Alderman Wright. Thank you. I appreciate Alderman Medeiros thinking I think the city has the capacity to enforce this. I would like to think that's possible in an ideal situation, but I don't think that's the case. I guess I would analogize it to some situations I've had in my ward where we've had overgrowth. we've had hedges or bushes which have grown to the point where they were blocking the ability for someone in a wheelchair or someone in a baby carriage to get by without going out into the street or have impeded the vision of people trying to take a corner and they've called i've gotten calls and i've called paul johnson at isd not john chena and paul has reached out to the owners
▶ 1:36:50 Francis X. Wright Jr.: who my memory is said they would take care of it didn't i'll try it again said you had to take care of it said they would didn't Paul finally had to threaten that he would enforce the ordinance which included a penalty of some sort of monetary penalty at which point it got taken care of so I think the question will come down to whether or not someone can get through if somebody if I can walk through or somebody can walk through or someone can push a a baby carriage to you know an inch of fluffy snow I don't think anyone's going to be calling ISD or the police or whoever ultimately enforces this you know I mean I would suggest that if there are no other changes in this that I certainly would want to see a change which was similar to the the proposal I
▶ 1:37:51 Francis X. Wright Jr.: had 2015 which would be that we not enforce it for at least the first year as far as having a monetary penalty people would get warnings they get door knockers as mr. Shana indicates and they understand that you know that gives them a chance to understand hey we have an ordinance and we want you to comply and at some point in the future there'll be a monetary penalty for this so that's where I'm coming from I would just think that I would like to see compliance I would like to see education but the reality is in my mind anyway human nature is they're always going to be some people who don't and if i can walk down my street and if of the hundred houses on my street one or two of them don't shovel then that means at that point in the road
▶ 1:38:44 Francis X. Wright Jr.: somebody some child some elderly person some commuter walking to or from the bus stop has to walk out into that street from behind a snow pile i'm just i just think we can avoid that i think people will comply some people will do it because they want to be good neighbors some people will do it because they feel compelled that's the vast minority of people but sometimes those people need a poke and i think other communities have seen and recognized that successfully and i think we can adopt a similar strategy here in melrose i'm hearing it from people i don't think they're making it up they're having trouble in the winter getting to where they need to go where they want to get get to so you know if you're hearing it and you don't believe
▶ 1:39:37 Peter D. Mortimer: it then fine but i'm hearing it and i tend to believe it thank you madam chair thank you Thank you. Alderman Mortimer. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. This came out nearly five weeks ago when amendments were asked for. But amendments were suggested, but the makers of the order, I think it's incumbent on the makers of the order to suggest any amendments that would respond to some of the concerns that have been put forth by Alderman. People who draft the order have the duty to make sure it's a workable change in the ordinance structure. If they want it to pass, it's nebulous, it's a good concept. The hyperbole that maybe you want four feet of snow on the sidewalk is just not true. None of us want that.
▶ 1:40:37 Peter D. Mortimer: Every one of us here, we didn't come on this job because we didn't care about the people in Melrose. We all care about the quality of life and the safety of people. Again, it is, I understand the point, it's well taken that, yeah, building a sidewalk may be more expensive than enforcement, but we don't know. As an alderman, I get calls from people who say, they were raking and some of their leaves went in the street. don't rake. Do they have to paint their house? Even some of the complaints we've had already have included photographs of people, and the sidewalks were passable, but some people have already complained, well, they didn't shovel enough. And that's the expensive enforcement apparatus that I'm concerned with. And even if we can't, and I understand the point, sidewalks
▶ 1:41:34 Peter D. Mortimer: are maybe more expensive than enforcement. I'm not sure, we don't know. We're dealing with uncharted territories and our money's tight. But maybe something that would be cheaper is a little more overtime for Mr. Shannon's excellent work, as I agree with the president's worker entirely, a little more overtime to extend the plow routes. Maybe we could just do some more education And then the price is known if we're going to have people, maybe if we got some of the high school kids who are volunteers and they need a certain amount of community service hours to graduate. Maybe the people who don't shovel, if they're just rotten people and they just say no, I'm telling the rest of the city to go jump on the lake and I'm not shoveling.
▶ 1:42:29 Peter D. Mortimer: Maybe if we sent some high school kids down to shovel our sidewalk, that would shame them into it. But maybe they are the exemptions, maybe they're sick. You know, 58 houses, Alderman McMaster pointed out, it's little, there's so many houses, 31% of about 9,000 houses, you know, that comes to almost 3,000 houses where 12 months a year people have to walk into the street. And again, it's a nuisance, and I wish we could make life perfect for everyone. But sometimes winter's a nuisance. Sometimes you have to walk in the street, and I haven't heard anybody hit by a car. I pray it never ever happens, but I think we could spend the money better to at least maybe do more plowing. And the enforcement apparatus, the bureaucratic boondoggle, which is possible.
▶ 1:43:31 Peter D. Mortimer: They didn't shovel, they didn't shovel enough. I did shovel, but the plow came by and it knocked the snow bank. I'm not shoveling twice. I have to appeal it as Alderman Tramontozzi. I believe in outreach, I believe in education. But I think we should try that first, not with an ordinance, just as a policy. This is something we can work together with and get our city officials to work on. Without talking about fines, without changing the ordinance, let's see, but let's take the small step first. None of us want to see snow on the sidewalks. But I think there's better ways to address this than to start talking about an ordinance with a fine right away. Now, yeah, in the five weeks this has been out here, no one has made any amendments,
▶ 1:44:27 Peter D. Mortimer: but I've been against it from the get. I think there's better things we can do, the things I just talked about. So I didn't want to make amendments to it because I'm against it. People are for it. They could or should make amendments to make it more palatable, but just by a rough count, The office needs eight to pass, and what I'm seeing here tonight, it doesn't have the eight. And I think that's for good reason. I think there's better ways to increase the convenience, quality of life, and possible public safety. It hasn't shown itself to be public safety yet, but it's possible. I certainly will concede that. And if we need to move on this, I thought, okay, there's a lot to be worked out. It's complicated.
▶ 1:45:22 Peter D. Mortimer: I'll withdraw my motion to retain this in committee. If the second would withdraw theirs, and we can send it up to the committee with a recommendation to pass, a recommendation that it ought not to pass, we can send it up to the full board tonight, and it probably won't pass. And I'll withdraw it, you know, I'm not, I was trying to let people speak and be heard and have a fruitful conversation. But if we want to move on this thing, let's move. Then somebody can make a motion at the full board that will follow later this evening, that we take this order from committee and let's have a vote. I'm ready, or we can keep it retained in committee. I'm happy with either one. I want the best for the city of Melrose, and we all do.
▶ 1:46:13 Peter D. Mortimer: But yeah, that's how noise complaints get answered, because someone calls the police on their neighbors. And sometimes the police need to be called on certain neighbors. But sometimes there are people, and we've all experienced this, especially more so the ward alderman, probably. Although that, yeah, People complain about picky-owned things on their neighbors. And that's what we get sometimes. And I'm not sure we want to set up that type of problem in Melrose where neighbors are turning against each other. I think we can do as a policy education and see how that works. Let's try it. Let's try it first. But to put something in place that has a fine, I don't think that's the best use of our resources and of our dollars.
▶ 1:47:14 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: But if people don't want to vote to retain this in committee, vote against it. Vote against my motion to retain this order in committee. I'll vote against it. I don't care. Let's do it. let's let's let's bring this up sure so to the president and alderman Mortimer comments as someone who's relatively new to the board I confess that I'm not truly clear on who is responsible for amendments and when they should be made and this is sort of a new deliberation for me and the substance it's very substantive and very helpful to hear from so many people so I thought it would be just helpful to revisit some of the the things that I thought should be addressed before a final vote would take place on in a proposed ordinance some
▶ 1:48:17 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: some of them I mentioned before so what one would be to revisit the use of the word all in terms of all snow and ice being removed a second is and I forgive me I read the wrong section in fact it hasn't been changed that currently is written residents would be responsible for me for getting the shoveling done within 12 hours of the snow or ice having come upon the sidewalk the only language I've seen in other ordinances around the Commonwealth is that you start the time ticking when the snow and ice stop falling because we don't really want people out in a snowstorm we want to wait until it's safe for people to be outside and that would also bring it into alliance to the same approach that's been taken for commercial and office and manufacturing space a third
▶ 1:49:06 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: thing that I would like to see addressed in some way in the ordinance and I'm not sure if other communities have a dealt with this is carving out an exemption of some sort for folks who are dealing with a lot of snow and ice that has fallen in on their sidewalks that is not from natural accumulation so in other words we've heard and I personally live on a corner and it can attest that sometimes the only place to put snow when you're plowing the streets is on the corners and it can become logistically impossible for the homeowner to address an accumulation of snow and ice on his or her property that is not just falling from the sky the fifth which I think has already been suggested by the sponsors
▶ 1:49:52 Kate Lipper-Garabedian: is that the enforcement entity in section e1 will be need to be amended as inspectional services does not have this role we've also heard from the director public works tonight that he doesn't really view his agency as an enforcement entity so we should revisit that and then the last one is something that I hadn't heard before tonight but I really appreciated Alderman Wright suggestion that we could have different effective dates for sections of this ordinance so that some of the ordinance might go into effect as of January 1 but any ordinance with respect to financial consequences could have an effective date say a year later which would give time for the type of education and outreach that many I
▶ 1:50:35 Manisha Bewtra: think that all of us would support that's not presumptuous to say so that is something else that I would recommend and I think that's it thank you thank you Thank You alderman the burger obedient I think you're right on with those comments I am inclined to support this again with some amendments I think most of the things alderman liberal gear obedient said make a lot of sense to me I was sort of I'm a little not the the language separating out commercial office manufacturing and then residentially zoned land is not quite working for me because there are a lot of potential lead missing things like non-conforming uses churches municipal facilities which I don't know if those would fall under our ordinance anyway because they're municipal but
▶ 1:51:33 Manisha Bewtra: multifamily properties mixed-use developments parks parking lots so I'm wondering I imagine the intention in separating out residential and other uses was to have a different fee or fine structure and that's less onerous for residents but that's one concern I have is you know could we propose something cleaner you know during the deliberation I was peeking at the city of Somerville's you know thinking of a community that has a lot of different types of land uses thinking of their ordinance and they have one sort of for all properties this is the ordinance what what is required regardless of what type of owner you are and what type of property it is they also specify a minimum passage of 36 inches which sounds super specific but at the same
▶ 1:52:36 Manisha Bewtra: time is a lot less um subjective than the the two-person um width and i think given some of the conversation about narrower sidewalks we could make it 36 inches or the width of the sidewalk if sidewalk is narrower than that so um those are kind of my my major concerns are the just i find the language a bit confusing and i apologize acknowledge that i haven't proposed amendments um specific language changes um though i'm happy to continue to work on them or whether we discuss them tonight or at our next meeting um those are all my comments thank you any further discussion thank you madam chair this will be the last if we stay here any longer it's going to start to snow um so uh thank you to everybody for their comments uh appreciate this
▶ 1:53:32 Michael P. Zwirko: i i did not know the protocol that the maker of the order was to amend it i've had orders before that i did not amend but that's okay um i'm happy to take the comments that have been laid out here this evening and as well as our prior meeting and i can bring forth some uh one global amendment uh the next time we meet on this i would favor keeping this in committee um the process here when i filed this was to make it you know organic and we would work through it in a public fashion which i believe we've done so hopefully uh the next time we take this up we can uh dispose of this one way or the other so that's all i had to say and i appreciate the time madam chair we have a motion that's been made and seconded to hold this order in committee any further discussion