Legal & Legislative Committee — 2015-11-23
Attendance
Jaclyn L. Bird ; Robert A. Boisselle ; Scott M. Forbes ; Gail Infurna ; Jennifer L. Lemmerman ; Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis ; Monica C. Medeiros ; Peter D. Mortimer ; John N. Tramontozzi ; Francis X. Wright Jr.
Agenda
Minutes
CITY OF MELROSE LEGAL & LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE CALENDAR● NOVEMBER 23, 2015 Aldermanic Chamber Committee Meeting 8:00 PM The public should take notice that the Melrose Board of Aldermen may, on certain occasions, have a quorum in attendance due to standing committees of the Board of Aldermen consisting of both voting and non-voting members. Members attending this duly posted meeting are participating and deliberating only in conjunction with the business of the standing committee. Attendee Name Title Status Arrived John N. Tramontozzi Chairman Present Francis X. Wright Jr. Vice Chairman Present Peter D. Mortimer Ward 6 Alderman Present Scott M. Forbes Ward 7 Alderman Present Jaclyn L. Bird Alderman at Large Present Robert A. Boisselle Nonvoting Member Present Gail M. Infurna Nonvoting Member Present Jennifer L. Lemmerman Nonvoting Member Present Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis Nonvoting Member Present Monica C. Medeiros Nonvoting Member Present
ORDER-2015-104 Amending Revised Ordinances Amend Melrose Revised Ordinances, Chapter 177-12: Snow and ice removal as set forth herein. Recommend as Amended Board of Aldermen City of Melrose Page 1 Updated 12/3/2015 5:53 PM
Transcript
▶ 51:27 John N. Tramontozzi: Just as a note for the record, this meeting is being recorded pursuant to the Massachusetts Open Meeting Law, would be available for future viewings through the cable network television. We have a motion to open the floor for public participation. So moved. Second. We have a motion by Alderman Byrd, seconded by Alderman Mortimer. Just for the record, I should also note, I am chairman of this committee. With us this evening is Vice Chairman Alderman Wright. Voting members of the committee is Alderman Mortimer, Alderman Forbes, and Alderman Byrd. non-voting members of the committee who are present, Alderman Boisselle, Alderman Inferno, Alderman Lemmerman, Alderman McIntyre-Miguelas, and Alderman Medeiros.
▶ 52:20 John N. Tramontozzi: And so we have a motion to open the floor for public participation by Alderman Byrd, seconded by Alderman Mortimer. On the motion, all in favor? Aye. Aye. Opposed, seeing none. This is the opportunity for any member of the public to come forward to speak on any matter on the agenda this evening. Seeing no members of the public- Motion. Second. I have a motion to close public participation by Alderman Byrd, seconded by Alderman Mortimer. On the motion, all in favor? Aye. Any opposed, seeing none, public participation is now closed. On our agenda this evening, we have one order, that's order 2015-104. Order to amend the Murrow's Revised Ordinances, Chapter 177-12. It's a snow and ice removal as set forth herein.
▶ 53:07 Francis X. Wright Jr.: was sponsored by the vice chairman of this committee alderman wright alderman wright you have the floor thank you mr chairman um i revisit this proposal i made uh last spring i made some uh adjustments based on uh some of the things i heard back then um it's it's my contention that most residents in Melrose do a great job clearing their sidewalks unfortunately a few do not and not doing so they've put our children our elderly our commuters who walk at risk last winter a boy was struck in Quincy and a woman was struck and killed on the South Shore both because sidewalks were not clear and they were forced to walk out from behind snow banks into the street when people able to walk I believe they support our local businesses whether they be the
▶ 54:08 Francis X. Wright Jr.: neighborhood stores or even be able to get downtown and I believe that when you live in a city like Melrose you make a social compact to your community that you'll keep your sidewalk clear if we believe that our downtown businesses have an obligation to clear their sidewalks for shoppers don't we believe that our residents should clear their sidewalks for our school children for our people who need to get to the 24-7 operations like the hospital nursing homes and and the like as well as our school children and neighbors you know I'm concerned that a child has to step out from behind a snowbank snowbanks like we had last summer last summer last wish we had snow banks last summer summer last winter and into the street to get to and from school I don't think
▶ 55:08 Francis X. Wright Jr.: we want to be a community that stands up for the driving public a community that keeps its side streets clean so that drivers in their SUVs and their cars and their trucks can cut through our neighborhoods while our elderly and children and others are forced out into the street now and then due to a few properties that do not clear their sidewalks allowing for the safe pedestrian passage in winter will benefit everyone as I said downtown and businesses throughout our city and I want to make it clear what I'm proposing is about compliance it's not about a penalty I want to see our sidewalks clear so that it's safe for our residents I know the people who live in Ward three walk to downtown they take the bus they walk to the Roosevelt
▶ 55:57 Francis X. Wright Jr.: they walk to the lincoln they walk to the middle school they walk to the high school they walk to oak grove um i'm not looking for a way to collect 25 or 50 because someone didn't shovel their sidewalk i'm looking to make this a safe community because i don't want on my watch for some kid to be picked off in reward three because he had to travel out in the street from behind a snowbank because somebody decided that they want to clear this their driveway so they could get their car out but they weren't going to do their sidewalk because all they cared about was getting out of their driveway and again i want to make it clear i think that 95 98 of the people in meadows do a great job and i don't understand why we wouldn't want to hold those other two percent
▶ 56:48 Francis X. Wright Jr.: three percent whatever small percentage it is accountable for for not doing a good job that said um what you have before you uh which i submitted uh it's my amended version of this um it it needs a little housekeeping so if you could look at uh the order that's dated july 26th it's an email to the clerk of committees and in B the fourth line about the middle afterwards sidewalks you should delete the word from residential to removed so that would read pedestrians on the full length of such adjoining sidewalk within six daylight hours that's the only housekeeping issue I have so anyway so so the way this reads is and a lot of this already exists in the present ordinance but generally this is a generally no owner tenant occupant of land or building or any agent thereon in this city
▶ 57:52 Francis X. Wright Jr.: shall cause any snow or ice from said land or building to be placed in the sidewalk curb ramp road or other public way in the city b removal required on sidewalks the owner tenant or occupant of a state including but not limited to those sections of the city containing commercial office multi-unit residential and building manufacturing facilities shall cause all snow and ice to be removed from the sidewalks and curb ramps adjoining such a state to allow for the safe travel of pedestrians on the full length of such adjoining sidewalk within six daylight hours after snow has ceased to fall or has drifted there on and and this is one of the changes I've made going forward here and from a one or two unit owner-occupied residential building all snow and ice to
▶ 58:37 Francis X. Wright Jr.: be removed within 12 hours after snow has ceased to fall or three hours after the sunrise whichever is later where property does not adjoin a sidewalk there shall be no obligation to clear snow as set forth herein c removal acquired on certain buildings this is unchanged this has to do with snow that falls off buildings you see some buildings in the square have you know careful of falling snow and ice so i won't bother reading that d clearing sidewalks that's has sidewalks adjoining public buildings or grounds shall be cleared under the direction of the engineer and the superintendent of public works enforcement one the superintendent of public works and his or her designee shall have the authority to enforce all provisions of section
▶ 59:22 Francis X. Wright Jr.: 177-12 and upon petition demonstrating serious hardship due to a combination of health and financial limitation temporarily exempt owner occupants of one or two family residential properties as to said owners one or two family residents the malice police is authorized to assist in the enforcement of section 177-12 two whoever violates any of the provisions of sub section 177-12 shall be fined fifty dollars per day for first offense in each subsequent offense within the exception of the with the exception of the first offense violation of owner occupy residentially zoned one or two family properties which first offense shall be a warning setting forth the penalty for subsequent offense, and the second offense shall be $25.
▶ 1:00:12 Francis X. Wright Jr.: I think you can delete the rest of that sentence. Now you would pick up, should snow or ice remain the day following the issuance of a violation notice, including a warning or fine, a subsequent violation notice may issue. For the purposes of this ordinance, whether an offense is a first or subsequent offense shall be based upon each individual snowstorm. earlier proposal was that it be each and every snow season so each winter so this would be each snowstorm so you would get a warning each snowstorm if you were cited three owners shall be liable for any violation of subsections this should be that should say a through C of section 177-12 upon neglect of or violation of the duties imposed by the provisions of subsections a through C of
▶ 1:01:03 Francis X. Wright Jr.: of Section 177-12, such duties may be performed by the superintendent of public works or his or her agent at the expense of the person or entities liable to perform those duties. Assessments of costs under this subsection shall not preclude any party from being fined under subsections E1 and E2. And five, the city solicitor, with the approval of the mayor, may in civil actions prosecute and adjust claims in erring to the city on the provisions of this section. i mean i think that the key portions of this are that you're responsible to shovel your sidewalk however if you own a one owner own and occupy a one and two family property you will get a warning each and every snowstorm if after you get a warning first of all you'll have until 12 hours
▶ 1:02:00 Francis X. Wright Jr.: after the snow ends or three hours after sunrise whichever is later so if the snow stops at 5 p.m and the Sun rises at 7 p.m. then you have till 10 a.m. to clean the snow you get a warning each storm and after the warning then you'd get a fine of $25 if you were cited I mean I think we all know we don't pull over every speeder and I don't think we're gonna cite everyone who doesn't shovel but we are going to have scofflaws people who we are all going to know are not doing their part and I think again Mike my my goal here is compliance not to collect fines so I think that the heavier fines will go on the $50 fine will go on commercial properties on non owner occupied properties on multi-unit
▶ 1:03:05 Francis X. Wright Jr.: buildings because quite honestly those properties tend to be more problematic those properties take up have generally have largest longer sidewalk areas in front of them those properties line the major streets those properties often have bus stops in front of them so so that's that's my proposal I'm interested hearing what the other members of the board have to say and i hope you'll support it thank you mr chairman very good just so um so we're clear on what uh cleanup uh was done to the uh the proposal i'm going to try to repeat it here which i think i have it for the benefit of the clerk of committees as well so in section b fourth line right after the word sidewalk or two words the joining sidewalk we we're striking residential shall cause all snow and ice to be removed
▶ 1:04:02 John N. Tramontozzi: yes and then then in e2 third to last line oh i'm sorry which one e e two yeah then the one two three fourth line let me if if you could uh alderman right if i could just repeat what i have and and then sure i apologize so on e2 all right whoever violates any of the provisions of subsections and then i i struck through but went a through c put in a through c subsections a through c of sections 177 yes yeah i'm sorry then after uh the on the one two three the fourth line after 25 striking setting forth the penalty for subsequent offenses yes then also on three um against subsections a through c striking the word through and number four same thing subsections a through a dash c striking through to clarify that yes mr chairman
▶ 1:05:13 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: did i miss anything no i believe that's it mr chairman any further discussion by any member of the committee or any non-voting member i'll be happy to hear from uh alderman mccarthy and my goal is thank you um i'm glad i'm glad we're finally discussing this again um especially on what's like the coldest night so far this year so good timing on that alderman right and certainly i think we all remember the reasons that you brought it forward last year i just wonder if in the meantime you've had an opportunity to discuss it with the public works the superintendent of public works at all who are you mr chairman go right here yes i have i had an opportunity to speak with mr shenna a couple of times most recently
▶ 1:06:04 Francis X. Wright Jr.: today he happened to call me because he knew it was on the agenda he supports it he's wants to you know see more compliance with the obligation to declare people sidewalks i mean the city obviously can't do everything um but and i don't want to put words in his mouth we we certainly could uh invite him here um if that's would be the desire of this board um but um he expressed the desire to move forward and to you know look at it after a year and see you know see you know what adjustments we might need to make to it if you know it's it's a something that we haven't done before and if uh if it works great if it doesn't work why didn't it work and let's adjust it accordingly thank you alderman wright my um i'm glad to hear that and i'm not surprised i'm sure
▶ 1:07:13 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: that he would be um in support being that i know last year they got a tremendous amount of calls about sidewalks that weren't cleared i think it's just going to take a real concerted effort not only you know from the community to make them aware of this but working hand in hand with the the DPW I'm thinking of certain areas where people are on a corner and you know you you shove they shovel out to a corner and then the DPW goes by and plows it in again so I mean obviously they're not going to be citing people under those circumstances so you know I think as long as we have that awareness from the administration that that it is sort of a pilot if you will in terms of how um we're going to be you know not necessarily finding people if there are issues that are sort
▶ 1:08:06 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: of beyond their control and they make a good faith effort then um i'm i'm happy to support it i guess i would just like to be assured from mr shena that that they will you know be diligent in letting people know the roots that are pla that the city plows and what the expectations are from the neighborhood and the rest of the neighbors in those areas as well thank you thank you very much mr chairman um i've been thinking about this one for a long time and i've been going back and forth with it and prior to coming down here i spoke to two of my constituents regarding it which was really kind of an interesting um take on it um this is a public safety issue i mean there's no doubt about it this is a public safety issue and i think
▶ 1:08:58 Gail Infurna: we do have to do things that promote public safety um i i do have some concerns and i was also going to suggest that we maybe make it a two-year pilot program come back and look at it again to see where how we're doing with the thing the corners do concern me because we do know that some of our streets are crowded you get a lot of snow and they do back up into the snow into those corners I know what happens around the Lincoln school area a lot of times that you know people will shovel and then the plow will come out and they'll black them in the corner and then it blocks the passageway for the kids to cross streets safely to get you know behind the link at school there so I think there's that little kink to work out to see how we're going to do with
▶ 1:09:52 Gail Infurna: that can we afford to really have the plow go by and pick up every corner you know if there's a an abundance of snow and you know we can say you know last year was an exception whatever it happened it is a reality so i mean we have to have a plan i think in place for the corners if we're going to um try to enforce this um with all that being said um and like i said i was really ambivalent about this for a number of years because in the ideal world i would love it to that we could just you know snap our fingers and all the sidewalks are clear from the snow and it's safe for walking for everybody because we do have commuters that walk every day we have you know kids going down to school i know as alderman wright said and between what three and ward five
▶ 1:10:39 Gail Infurna: there's an awful lot of people who don't have the second cars or even a one car to take their kids down to school so that they are driving or they are walking and we do have to make it safe i know years ago when my kids used to walk to school i realized that they used to walk out on west wyoming ave because back then they didn't even do the sidewalks on west wyoming ave so it's you know we've been taking our chances so i will support this i would like to see it maybe as something i don't know if we need to put a little sunset clause on it to say come back and revisit it in two years and really get the public's input i think we have to do a real good job in getting this word out to the public um i don't know if in the next water and trash um uh
▶ 1:11:26 Gail Infurna: water and yeah trash bill whether they could the dpw could put a letter in there to hit every home um so that everybody is aware of this um and um and deal with it in a kind matter because we're not it is not about collecting the money it is about a public safety issue so with some of those suggestions and thoughts going on forward but it would be nice if we could get something in the books for this winter um so i i hope we we can kind of come to some sort of resolution on this and, you know, have all the suggestions put into place and see what we can do as we move forward, so. Very good, thank you. Any further discussion? Alderman Mortimer? I'll yield to Alderman Burke, please. Alderman Burke.
▶ 1:12:15 Jaclyn L. Bird: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Alderman Wright, for bringing this forward back in February. And I know we had a good discussion, I think it was in March, on this as well. As I saw it on the agenda again tonight, I looked up some information to try to get a sense of how we would fit in with what other communities in our area have done for kind of best practices, and I came across the Metropolitan Area Planning Council, the MAPC, did a study in 2012 on snow removal policy, excuse me, and they identified two key factors in cities and towns that had successful sidewalk snow removal policies. The two key factors for success were a strong public awareness campaign and consistent enforcement.
▶ 1:13:01 Jaclyn L. Bird: So I like the idea of making sure that we're going with a tone of compliance and not something punitive. But at the same time, I think in order to set ourselves up for success, even if we are going to do it only for two years, we want to make sure that we're taking information communities that have already tried this and then you know implementing what the lessons that they've already learned so I think what I'd like to do is hear from the DPW DPW director as to whether or not the staff feels they can adequately handle monitoring the program and making sure that what we're setting forth as far as our expectations for the community can actually be enforced when necessary but also to hear about what their efforts what they intend to do as
▶ 1:13:48 Jaclyn L. Bird: far as getting the word out in a positive way on because i agree with you i think most people in melrose are very good about clearing their sidewalks and i think we want to encourage that we want to remind people of why it's so important why it's a public safety issue and all of that but i think we need to make sure they have a plan in place to address it before you know we kind of throw them throw it at them and i i understand you had a conversation i'd feel better if mr shenna came in and answered some questions that i have um that are still outstanding after reading this and just wanting to make sure that if we're going to do this that we do it the right way and that people don't then have an expectation that we're able to do
▶ 1:14:22 Peter D. Mortimer: something that we can't deliver on so um i would like you know i'm i'm happy to move it forward with the idea that um we can have someone from dpw here before the full board meeting to answer questions thank you mr chairman very good welcome uh alderman mortimer um thank you very much and i would like to applaud um alderman wright of his concern for uh public safety of our children and our seniors people who are walking we strive to make Melrose a pedestrian friendly city and we've been doing pretty well with it over the last decade lots of places to walk pinch points and traffic which sometimes can be hard on bicyclists but they're good for pedestrians and that's the problem you you and friends you know you expand one person's safety when you infringe on
▶ 1:15:12 Peter D. Mortimer: somebody else's rights. I could be in favor of this with some tweaks. Right now, I'm still ambivalent to use Alderman Inferna's word because there's some problems with it. I would like to not move this forward yet. I'd like to hold this in committee. I would like to hear from Superintendent of Public Works, John Shenna. I'd also like to hear from our City Solicitor, and I'd like to hear from the Chief of Police, because after all, the sidewalks are city land, and I have a lot of conversation with my constituents, and actually constituents from other wards, too, whom I usually refer to the Ward Alderman, but I get a lot of calls, and I'm well known, and personally, I haven't had too many calls
▶ 1:16:05 Peter D. Mortimer: about, I can't get by, the streets are blocked, because we do, as a matter of course, plow around our schools. We have our sidewalk plows and they have certain routes around the schools and downtown sometimes that they plow in spite of the fact that the residents need to do that. The calls I get more often than I can't get by because the sidewalks are blocked. The calls I get is that I shoveled my sidewalk and the city plow came in and put a 12 foot high snow mountain right on the corner for people who have the corner lot. I also get a lot of people who live on a T. Their street T's into another street like Faxon or Ferncroft, and they shovel their sidewalk, and then the city plow coming in off the T street onto a main street
▶ 1:17:00 Peter D. Mortimer: puts another, usually not the 12-foot one that you see on corners, but they put an 8-foot snow mountain on the person's sidewalk. Now, after someone has just shoveled out, or maybe they haven't shoveled out yet, and the city puts a big mountain, I don't think it's right then to say, well, now you have to shovel your sidewalk. So I think we should put, if we're going to do anything with this, we should put an exemption like that because the sidewalks are, after all, city land. Another problem that I have with it is if families are traveling, Over the Christmas vacation or over the February vacation, they're going to visit relatives. They're going away, and a snowstorm hits. Now they are liable under this statute because no one's home in their house while they are visiting grandma
▶ 1:17:54 Peter D. Mortimer: or grandma is off visiting the family somewhere else, and that's a problem. Another problem with this that I have is that if people are ill, they're injured, they're sick, they're just weak, old, whatever, sorry, I'm sorry to older people, but believe me, I'm getting there, I'm going to be 60 next year, I'm feeling weaker every day. And, you know, if they can't shovel their sidewalk and they really can't afford to pay someone, this could be a problem. problem. Another issue I have with this is how clear is clear? I mean, this is the problem with enforcement. If you have speeding violations, well, were you going 60 or were you going 55? There's a radar gun. Were you parking more than two hours or were you not parking
▶ 1:18:51 Peter D. Mortimer: more than two hours? We have that. But how clear does the sidewalk have to be? And then the sidewalk, the snow melts and it comes back and then it thaws again and ice forms across the sidewalk and now there's snow there. Something, what we have with our parking ticket system is we have an appeals officer, we have our parking clerk who's there on Tuesday to hear hearings and if you get a parking ticket you can go. Now if you get one of these snow tickets And what I'd like to see to help this, I'd like to see two or three warnings before any fine attaches. I'd like to see two or three warnings since, as everyone said, and I think we all agree, the purpose isn't collection of revenue. The purpose is to make sure the sidewalks are clear for the safety.
▶ 1:19:43 Peter D. Mortimer: And I feel it because my daughter walks to the middle school. She walks down the streets of Melrose. She's there all the time. She used to ride her bike, and it started to get unsafe. Believe me, I understand pedestrian safety and bicycle safety. My daughter walks to that middle school every day, and I'm afraid. I'm afraid for her, but I'm also afraid of some of this enforcement. Another problem is if you have neighbor animosity and you have neighbors calling the other, oh, Mr. Jones didn't shovel the sidewalk, Mr. Smith didn't shovel the sidewalk, and And they're calling up, trying to rat each other out, and the city ends up getting involved in a mess. You know, the overnight parking, we have people who call up about that, but it's clear, you can't park between two and six.
▶ 1:20:35 Peter D. Mortimer: You got an hour grace period, so it's really between two and five. So it's supposed to be between one and six. So somebody calls up and says, hey, that car's in the street, it's three o'clock in the morning, it's been there for two hours. The police know exactly what to do, there's a ticket, that's it. Again, the neighbors are calling up, this sidewalk's not clear. Well, how clear is clear? Another problem that could hit people is it says that if there's no sidewalk, a lot of properties in Melrose have a grass strip in front of them. And it says here in the ordinance that those properties don't have to clear, you don't have to shovel off the grass, if I take it right. Is that what that's meant to be for the chair?
▶ 1:21:22 Peter D. Mortimer: I'm not an engineer, but I don't believe that would count as a sidewalk. Okay, good. Okay, so, but the problem with that is if we get a foot of snow and it's one of those homes that has grass in front of the house instead of a sidewalk. Now the DPW driving around or the police driving around, they don't know. Because they can't see it because there's a foot of snow on it. that that's another problem so the people get a ticket and whom do they call up I'd like to see include in this ordinance some type of appeals officer so they could go down although that would be a nuisance for them to say look I got this warning or I got this ticket and I don't have a sidewalk in front of my house it's grass you know my property goes grass right up to the curbstone so
▶ 1:22:19 Peter D. Mortimer: I'd like to see some type of property in this and the one that scares me the most is when you violate a statute or an ordinance under the civil law you are presumed liable it's a prima facie case that you're liable so if you don't shovel your sidewalk for some reason you're visiting somebody you're on vacation with your family and someone slips and falls in front of your house because the sidewalk wasn't shoveled now they can sue you because you have violated an ordinance so you're on the hook for a lawsuit and most people in Melrose don't have an umbrella policy nor should they have to so suffice to to say I see a lot of problems with this statute I love the intent of it it would keep my daughter safer and and and I love it very much I love the intent of
▶ 1:23:25 Peter D. Mortimer: the statute but I see there's a lot of problems with it and before we move forward I'd like to hear from our city solicitor I'd like to hear from our chief of police I'd like to see an appeals process in place and I'd like to hear from our DPW officer because this is tough this is tough government can do a lot for people but government can't write every wrong unfortunately and believe me my heart is there with my daughter but I also see a lot of problems uh with with this ordinance proposed ordinance change the way it is so that's just food for thought i would like to support this at some point i would very much like to support this but the points i'd like to see maybe if more warnings less fine and maybe if
▶ 1:24:18 Francis X. Wright Jr.: there's some way to straighten out some of these other issues an appeals process and some way to prevent somebody from getting sued if somebody claims they didn't shovel their sidewalk thank you that's all i have for now all right um we have alderman wright and alderman Medeiros other committee members i'm going to defer to alderman wright first thank you mr chairman um i appreciate uh alderman Mortimer comments uh i would note that we do have a letter from the city solicitor although i let me back up i wholeheartedly support dpw commissioner shenna coming before us as well as the police chief and the city solicitor so i would propose that we invite them to the next meeting i would suggest they be our next meeting as a full board that
▶ 1:25:10 Francis X. Wright Jr.: this come out of committee not be held in committee because we're running out of time our calendar is going to end and we're going to end up in a new legislative session come january i don't want to have to start this all over because by the time we get it through winter will be over we all know how it works so i'm not in favor of keeping in committee but i am in favor of calling city officials anyone who you want here as a city official i'm all in favor of inviting them that said if you look in your packet you'll see on february 27th the city solicitor wrote us a considerable letter an opinion letter on on this on my prior draft and i believe well i appreciate your thoughts alderman mortimer as to when you would be liable
▶ 1:25:59 Francis X. Wright Jr.: i would disagree with your legal opinion as relates to when you're liable for slipping and falling the sjc decided um most recently uh in uh the apodopolis case that if you fall you don't have to have an ordinance if you slip and fall on somebody's sidewalk and it used to be as a result of an unnatural accumulation of snow and ice they've said now that even a natural accumulation of snow and ice that you fail to remove from your sidewalk results in liability on the owner so i i disagree with your opinion that said i don't want people to have to sue residents of the city i don't want people to slip and fall i want people to be able to walk down the sidewalk not out in the street not get hit by a car we keep our streets nice and clear
▶ 1:26:57 Francis X. Wright Jr.: so our cars can zip down outside streets as cut throughs but we don't keep don't require our sidewalks to be kept clear so our children our elderly our commuters can get down them most of them are it's the random house that isn't i want that house required to do it there's a hardship provision in what i've drafted we can work on it but it allows the sick people of limited means to be considered you know maybe those people we get a warning you know what if they live near me give me a call I'll come up with my snowblower I'll do it I'm happy to help we've got high school students who work for the community benefits program who help we can do this it's about compliance so I'm all about getting this done not about putting up roadblocks be perfectly blunt
▶ 1:27:46 Francis X. Wright Jr.: so I have heard it I heard it the first storm last year from a parent who couldn't get their child to the lincoln school because somebody didn't bother somebody who who has a plow on their truck didn't take care of their sidewalk their driveway was nice and clear but their sidewalk wasn't i can i can see other houses in my head on the route between the ward 3 neighborhood i live in and the middle school where they had driveways cleared and sidewalks that weren't it's just not acceptable in this day and age there's more cars on the road when you and i grew up everyone had one car now everyone over the age of 18 has a car there's more cars on the road which means when you're a pedestrian you've got to have eyes in the back
▶ 1:28:35 Monica C. Medeiros: of your head when the roads get narrow and the snow banks get high so let's get everyone here let's move this along if the board doesn't want to support it that's the will of the board but i want to vote that's what i want thank you thank you mr jr would you like a last comment sure i'm not sure it will be the last but uh no again i i thank all of them right for for trying to do something here uh you know i had a lot of reservations uh back in march over this i still remain to have a lot of those reservations i think all of them brought a lot of those up um I again I'm not a voting member of this committee I definitely do think we should have the I think both the chief of police and the superintendent of
▶ 1:29:27 Monica C. Medeiros: Public Works here to discuss it I driving around last year last year of course was a horrible horrible winter but it was a lot more than 5% of our population I think that was not that wouldn't have complied to to what's here um that was an exceptional storm or season of storms i should say but nonetheless i think we do have a little bigger of an issue um but most most years when the snow you know the snowfall isn't uh in seven feet measurements uh it really is it seems like and i do get calls from time to time you know that there's specific problem houses and if i were to make one change here that i think that might address those problem households and i think instead of looking for this you know 12 hours after the end of snow or three hours after sunrise i think i would go with
▶ 1:30:30 Monica C. Medeiros: something like five days and that seems like a tremendously long time but there are some people that really it it's some of those storms it takes days to to shovel yourself out of there and to really get down and go back over the the ground and try to get rid of ice and try to get it really clear there are some people that when things slow down you'll see the houses that they didn't bother to try or they blew up huge piles of snow on the sidewalk as they snowballed their driveway you you know you see the ones that are the problems and i just i think there's huge huge issues with enforcement here i don't i don't know when we're in the middle of a snowstorm and we have all hands on deck out trying just to clear the roads and get the schools cleared out and the sidewalks
▶ 1:31:26 Monica C. Medeiros: cleared with the sidewalk plows and getting you know the big amounts of snow moved out of the downtown and sometimes those corners I don't know who's gonna have time to enforce did you you know shovel out the sidewalk in time and as somebody who lives on a corner of a busy street you know we've certainly had many times the the plows you know you you clear it out it comes you come back in the city's knocked it over or something's happened and there's just no way for some of the people who live on the the major streets where that that slush and that gunk is just so heavy and so hard that they can shovel out four feet of sidewalk to be clear and clean you know I think this then gives us the city an obligation to
▶ 1:32:20 Monica C. Medeiros: increase our sidewalk routes and what we're plowing because some of it is kind of unreasonable I think it opens up the door to a lot more I don't know how we would have the time to enforce all of this yes there is a provision for if you're if you're sick or if you're a financial hardship but then now this is another whole level of government and people have to do this and we have to pay them to do it and it's it's I just I don't I don't see how we're going to be able to physically enforce this the way it is I I know I mentioned at the last meeting I get c-click fix updates I get updates from Malden I got so many updates they just come on to your phone that you know somebody somebody's house
▶ 1:33:14 Monica C. Medeiros: the sidewalk hadn't been shoveled in front of and I think to myself every time I saw them what would we do if that was happening in Melrose and we had so many of those complaints and I don't think we have the police officers or the DPW staff or the building inspection staff to even handle that in a consistent way and the idea of you know one day I recognized that I was that address is one of the city councillors addresses now I don't know whether or not he actually shoveled his walk or not but you know is that just you know retribution of an angry neighbor or constituent or is it because what is clear I think there's a lot of a lot here but if we're gonna try to make it work I would extend that time to something like five days and I think
▶ 1:34:06 Peter D. Mortimer: you'd really see the problem thank you thank you very much just briefly the The point I was making, and it seems that I did not express it clearly enough about the legal opinion. I'm, of course, familiar. I read the whole jacket, and I've looked up the Papadopoulos case, and I understand that if someone doesn't shovel their walk, they can now be sued, presumably, but then it's an open case. What happens is, if a ticket is issued, then that tilts the balance of proof. We're talking about fine legal distinctions here, but if a ticket has been issued and somebody sues you, now you're in trouble. And if I can make a comparison with that to a car accident, two people have a car accident. And one person says it was your fault, the other person says no, it was your fault.
▶ 1:35:09 Peter D. Mortimer: If the police officer gives the first driver a ticket, well, it's the first driver's ticket. It's the first driver's fault now because the ticket has been issued. That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying that this is going to open the door. The door is already opened by the Papadopoulos case. What I'm saying is this is going to tilt the burden of proof way against the homeowner. That's the legal point I'm trying to make is when a ticket's issued, that person's at fault almost definitely in the civil case that's true in car accidents and it would probably be true in this case and that point is only one of eight points that i made um and i i think we really really need to look at them whether we do it at the full board i'd like to move it forward
▶ 1:36:01 Peter D. Mortimer: too i i love the intent to this but it's a very very sticky thorny issue um and you know i want to protect our citizens more than anyone and i do that in my neighborhood too i take my snowblower and i i shovel out my neighbors houses all the time um but uh this this this is this is this has got some uh some thorns on on the uh on the vine So, that's all I have for now. Thank you. I did see Alderman Lehman raise her hand before Alderman Wright, although Alderman Lehman is not a voting member. No, I defer to the good Alderman. Very good. Thank you. Let's hear from her. Thank you, Alderman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll be brief. I just wanted to sort of weigh in as I've thought about all the comments that have been
▶ 1:36:53 Jennifer L. Lemmerman: made tonight, and I think that there are some really good questions that are being brought up and would certainly agree that it would be helpful to have representatives from the city such as mr. Shana come down and talk to us about how he sees this actually working on a day-to-day basis when the winter comes so I would certainly support that but but we do know that it has worked in in cities and as alderman bird pointed out you know there have been studies it's been done well and it's worked and we can learn from that and we can build this that way in my opinion I think that the way that I've looked at it as I've as I've thought about it is yes it's about compliance as as Alderman Wright has
▶ 1:37:32 Jennifer L. Lemmerman: said I also think it's about creating a culture that that we want in our city a culture of good neighbors and taking care of children that are walking to school we know the majority of our kids walk to school and and creating that that environment that that we all enjoy about about the city and I think there's lots of ways to encourage that culture some some ways are peer pressure which has gotten me out in the cold way earlier than I wanted to on a lot of mornings what I see my neighbors out there already doing it you know community service we saw last year there were kids in the middle school in the high school who would come out and help their neighbors and they actually were able to get some credit for that which was a great program and I think that
▶ 1:38:12 Jennifer L. Lemmerman: worked out really well so I see this as another incentive to be a part of that and to encourage that culture and you know make sure that that we're all kind of taking care of each other and the neighbors when we're in a situation where things are getting a little difficult to get around so I plan to support it I will be interested to hear from some of the city officials but I certainly I certainly support what this order is trying to do and what Alderman Wright trying to do with it thank you very good Alderman Wright, you might have a motion, maybe? This one last comment before I move the order. I respectfully disagree with Alderman Mortimer legal opinion overall. That said, I would request that the city solicitor,
▶ 1:39:02 Francis X. Wright Jr.: the DPW commissioner and the police chief be asked to attend our meeting on November 30th and I move the order. That's a special meeting, this won't be on that agenda. I'm sorry, I couldn't hear the clerk. The clerk of committees has advised the chairman that that date is a special meeting and that this order probably should not go on that date, but maybe the next. It's not on that agenda. That agenda's already been set. It's been set. So, well, our next meeting, which will be the following Monday? December 7th. So, okay, for the meeting of December 7th, that we invite the three city officials, police chief, DPW commissioner, and the city solicitor to attend. And I move the order be recommended to the full board.
▶ 1:39:56 John N. Tramontozzi: Second. So, we have a motion by the vice chair of the committee, which is Alderman Wright, to recommend this order to the full board with the request for having certain individuals present. Second the motion. And we have a second by Alderman Forbes, a voting member of the committee. With that motion before us, all in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Seeing none, that order has been recommended and will be sent forth to the full board for further discussion and vote with the recommendation that those individuals that you requested be present ah with that second we have a motion to adjourn by alderman mortimer seconded by alderman forbes on the the motion all in favor aye the opposing then we are injured thank you good evening and good night