Discussion: Superintendent Hiring Process

Transcript (~44 min @ 1:14:05)

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▶ 1:13:52 Speaker 1: Great. We have moved to the final public session agenda item, which is announcements of the chair. So I'll just quickly frame. In your packets this evening, you have a memo that is hiring information regarding a superintendent hiring process. As you can see in the packet, we've called out that, um, as...... Superintendent Berman's contract states, we are to make a decision around the hiring of a superintendent by December 31st. And so, in that packet, we've outlined two potential paths that oftentimes districts take when they're going through a superintendent hiring process. Tonight, my hope is that we can stay in a discussion to really begin to talk through what are the pros and cons of these two particular paths. My recommendation would be that we actually move into a vote at our next meeting, in terms of what that process would be. With that, I will open up to any questions, comments, as we start to think about pros and cons between what's listed in that memo and what's been on our minds as well.

▶ 1:15:02 Speaker 1: (clicking) Mr. Kelley, get us started. Thank you.

▶ 1:15:03 Speaker 4: Sure. Thank you so much. Um, uh, I certainly have my own preference on what to do, but I would kind of look to some of our more tenured, um, school committee members to talk about the pros and cons of doing a, a search and how has that worked in Melrose in the past. Or how has it maybe not worked well in Melrose in the past. So, I can look to, I think, three people that have been part of that. If any of them would like to share their experiences, I would, I think that would be super helpful.

▶ 1:15:33 Speaker 1: Ms. Driscoll, go ahead.

▶ 1:15:34 Margaret Raymond Driscoll: I'd like to lead off. Thank you. Um, so, um, I think I'm on, um, my sixth superintendent. Um, I've been involved in, um, five searches and, um, one appointment. Um, and, um, I'd like to just walk through, um, a couple of things. I think number one is pretty self-explanatory, so I'll speak to, um, going through a search process. So, um, I would say, uh, to begin, the superintendent search is typically a two to three-month process. I will say that it's always going to take longer than you think it is going to take. I don't remember one that actually held to the very specific timeline, although I could be fact-checked on that. Because real life happens with, with everybody, whether it's, uh, school committees, whether, whether it's candidates, whether it's visits, and so forth. Um... Weather, sometimes. So it's, it's very hard to, to keep to that, as, yeah, weather, like, it snows. Um, so, um, and also, you know, the range of $15,000 to $20,000, that's the check that you ultimately write, and Mr. Kelley can correct me if I'm wrong, but there are other things that, um, are included in the costs because, um, you have to have spaces, you have to have the lights on, you have to have janitors, you have to have all kinds of things. So I would say -ish is probably a, maybe a good way, um, to, to put that. Um, so just in terms of the key steps, and I really appreciate, um, this memo, um, Ms. Withey and, um, Assistant Ci- City Solicitor, uh, Lindquist, um, it's very helpful. So just to even, to start, is, you know, esta- establishing the search method, of course, whi- which is what we're doing. Um, and in that with the, um, the hiring criteria and so forth, it's setting the timeline. So the committee sets the timeline. Um, h- setting the hire- the hiring criteria can involve many things, so it's been done in different ways. Um, you can do surveys, you can do focus groups, you can do, um, the survey. The, excuse me, the school committee can set the, um, the hiring criteria with feedback, for example, from the community. So there are multiple ways to do that. Um, each has specific logistical requirements that take capacity from volunteers and paid individuals in the district, um, in addition to the consultant. So there's a lot of work that's done by the committee itself and by the administration to actually, behind the curtain, make a search happen. Um, developing the application and recruiting the candidates is greatly, I would say, on the consultant, but there is, significant conversation around, are we ensuring that this matches the intentions of the committee? Um, so there's that piece. Um, selecting the superintendent screening committee, I will tell you, is a significant process that is not necessarily viewed by everybody. But there is a lot of, um, determination over h- which roles will be included. We'll have teachers, we'll have, um, community members. There will be experts in the field. There will be, um, a- administrators. So, um, the, the idea is to balance out a search committee, so there's representative of all the stakeholder groups. And doing that, um, and some of that is done in public, and some of that can be done, um, in executive session. So, but you have to be extremely careful about that, and all leading through that takes a significant amount of capacity from the assistant city solicitor, because you cannot do it wrong. And so, because jeopardizing a search that way is, there's risk involved in that. And it's, it's often, uh, the best investment, but it, it has to be called out and named as, uh, an invest- a capacity investment. Um, once the screening committee is, uh, uh, comes together, there are the logistics of, where do they meet? Do you give them anything to eat because they're sitting there for four hours? (laughs) Uh, many of you have sat, um, on those committees. Um, how does, you know, does Chartwells provide that kind of, um, you know, some support for us? How do we do, um, all of those things? Are the doors open? It's a, there are times when doors have to be opened and times when they're allowed to be closed, and if it's not done correctly, again, we respect what the community and what the laws say, and they have to be followed. Uh, so there's all those very tiny details.Once those semifinalists are chosen, the screening committee does disband, um, and, uh, this, uh, so the semifinalists would interview and finalists would be put forward. Again, there's a public and, and private part of that. Um, and everybody has to be extremely careful. There is training that goes into the screening committee that the consultant does, um, but there are a lot of considerations that are really important. Um, and so again, it's knowing all of those steps. Once the announcement of the finalists come out, um, which is always an ex- exciting time, right, um, to think of what the, the future is, the finalists do interview, and as you know, we usually have a day for them to be on campus, if you will, and they come and they spend the day in the district. Um, there is, there could be tours of the buildings, there's, um, meetings with administrators, there's a wide variety of activities that go on there. They generally meet with the community later in the afternoon, and that involves, again, getting a room, making sure the lights are on, making sure MMTV is available and is there to ensure that the public who cannot be there is, um, is observing what is happening and gets to make their own assessments. And then of course, they come to the committee at the end of a long day, so if that's not a test for (laughs) um, stamina, I'm not sure what is, but it's pretty significant, um, in that, you know, they can do site visits. Um, you can have the committee go to their home district, um, and meet with them. I have not find that, found that to be particularly helpful because you get the v- it's like anytime, it's like references often. Um, we wanna show our best side and we wanna make sure that we are respectful to the individual. So there's a lot in that if the committee chose to pursue that route. And then the school committee votes to appoint the superintendent, um, and take it from there. So, you know, the, there is the investment is, i- the financial investment, there is significant y- uh, human capital investment on many sides. So I would say that, um, I'd also just like to speak to the landscape in the commonwealth of superintendents. Um, ih- first of all, a national search, um, although it's certainly a lofty ideal and, and, um, you know, I could see where that would have some appeal. Um, folks from outside Massachusetts have a hard time understanding Massachusetts, I think. We are, um, pretty regulated and, um, there's a law for, for just about everything and a regulation for just about anything. I think it's a heavy lift for somebody to come in and really get absorbed into the Massachusetts culture. So I would be very skeptical of that. Um, the landscape for superintendents in the commonwealth of Massachusetts is very thin, and I think that is discussed by superintendents all the time. And, um, we wanna make sure that we have somebody, you know, we, we want somebody with a good amount of experience, varying experience, but it's a, it's a tough job and, um, it's hard to hire. And frankly, Melrose does not pay a huge amount. Um, we are a small town. Um, I don't have to tell you all the things that have been discussed in our community for many, many months, but we are not able to pay $300,000 for a superintendent. Like, that's, that's just not gonna happen. Um, and there's no guarantee that somebody coming in, um, would understand us or ultimately meld well and, um, uh, those are all sort of in the landscape, um, environment. I see the hallmarks, um, of superintendents, uh, that, uh, who are in districts, um, here and in other places in the commonwealth is that... and some of these were spoken to earlier, it's about professional culture, trust and relationships. Because without those things, um, the, I, I believe you are destined to fail because you have to be open, you have to listen carefully and thoughtfully, you have to be willing to take criticism because I think there's no job that's more criticized (laughs) than that of the superintendent. Um, so having... but being able to know and embrace a professional culture of a district. Um, I think loyalty was, was certainly mentioned. Um, we've seen in this district good times and bad. We've had construction, uh, in many cases. We've had the year of taking the zero. So you've lived through that. That was not a very happy time for anybody on either side. Um, and I'm not even gonna say COVID except that I just said it. Um, so, uh, you know, I think putting students first is really important, um, and I think that comes out. Understanding that this job is tremendously public-facing and there will always be people who hate you, and I think that's really hard. Um, and I think somebody who's willing to put themselves, put themself out there and say that they want this job, um, and that... and I have heard this before, um, "I just want a comfortable place to live, so I think Melrose would be great." And that has stuck with me, um, because I, I often reflect on that about the people, and it can be anybody who, who comes to Melrose. I would never want someone to say that because it means that they don't love kids enough to work in this district. So I would want all of those things as part of our professional culture, our trust and relationships in each other, even when we disagree, we can, we can disagree without being disagreeable. Um, and I think that's really important because we can push each other to be better or to learn more or, or to give grace when we make mistakes. And I think having that ability, um, to interface with each other and have those candid conversations that are sometimes uncomfortable is really, really important. So, um, I'm wondering, you know, can you truly get a picture of someone in 20 hours of interviews who is really in their, you know...... bringing out the best of themselves, right? That's what interviews do. We never really have that, but being able to have more of an observation is always helpful because it gives us a clearer picture of someone's, um, core values. And I do think that, you know, we are in an environment regardless of the C-suite position, where there's a lot more and more encouragement in growing your own, sharing responsibility for, "I don't expect you, universe, to bring me the perfect candidate." How do we, how do we develop and train, um, our own people in districts around the Commonwealth when that is the good time, when it is the right time, when it feels good to a wide variety of people? Whether it's a teacher, a para coming into the classroom, and then moving into administration, um, or all of those pathways. I've seen Melrose, over the years, work very hard to give, um, educators those additional opportunities, whether it's coaching opportunities, um, teacher leaders, things like that, because it provides pathways, not only to personal/professional development, but it's, it's a better environment for kids. So that shared responsibility and that, those succession planning elements, I see as hallmarks of quality school systems that have the consistency that lead to improved student outcomes over time.

▶ 1:27:46 Speaker 1: Thank you. I know, Mr. Kelley, you started the conversation by asking, um, any veteran, uh, school committee members that wanted to speak to their experience in hiring a superintendent via a search process prior. I know we're also gonna continue to talk about pros and cons of a search or an appointment, but I wanted to just bring it back to see if there's anyone else on the committee who has gone through the process of hiring a superintendent that would want to shed any light to your question.

▶ 1:28:14 Speaker 2: Well, as one of many Gens over here, I guess I'll go first.

▶ 1:28:18 Speaker 1: (laughs) Thanks, Jen.

▶ 1:28:20 Speaker 2: Thanks. Um, so been here for almost eight years, coming up on the end of eight years. And when I started on the committee, Cindy Tamer was well into her, um, time as superintendent, and I believe she served for eight years, and, uh, she did a lot of very good things for our district, and that was quite a time to be, um, here in the horseshoe with her. And then we, we did a search, and, um, and we wound up having Julie Kuchenberger be our next superintendent, and then we had COVID, and then there was a big controversy that happened around some money. So that was three years there. And then after that, we did a search. That was a failed search. And then we had Mr. John Masero as our interim superintendent. He did a lovely job. And then we had Adam Delaney here for a year, and that ended quickly. And now we have Ms. Berman. Um, so what I've learned by working in my district in Salem for 15 years, as well as sitting here on the committee, is that excellent superintendents are very hard to come by, and the ha- the- the half-life for superintendents is very short. In- and- and in Massachusetts, during the eight- last eight years, we've probably seen the average amount of time a superintendent is serving in a position go from five years to three, and maybe less. So I've witnessed m- a town like Marblehead have, like, seven superintendents in seven years. Um, that, I think a lot of that is also happening in many towns like Brookline. Um, I think there's a big controversy going on in Cambridge. Uh, so if you just read the papers, you'll see that it is, if you didn't know already, being a superintendent is a really hard job, and it's not for... It doesn't work out well for many people. Um, I think with social media, um, and doxing, it's only made the pressure crank up that much further. Um, so what I am looking for in a superintendent is someone who is passionate, who puts students first, someone who is trustworthy, who people feel they can trust, they can go to, has an open door policy, um, is approachable, has integrity, is loyal, can listen and take feedback and shift and pivot, has heart, has skill, is seasoned, is an excellent communicator, can, um, is a systems thinker, cares about diversity, equity, and inclusion, believing in all students, holding high standards and modeling high standards through their own behavior, and passionate about culture, the culture of every single school. So that's what I care about, and I know (clears throat) that there will be, um, a group of people in Melrose that want us to do a whole search, um, and we're gonna listen, and we also are... We've been extremely, extremely fortunate, um, that Ms. Berman has stepped to the plate and hit it out of the park.

▶ 1:31:30 Speaker 1: Thank you. I'll just add, I know that I am a veteran committee member, I believe, at this point, in four years. Um, you said it really well in terms of just our experience. And in my time here, I've led one search, and I've seen four superintendents. Um, I think that's a lot, just to say it quickly. Um, and at the same time, I think in the search process, Mr. Schill, you outlined, there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes, and then usually we have somebody that comes, and they have an entry plan, and they share the things that they're ultimately wanting to consider for the district, and then we move forward. What's not always predictable is how long that person may be alongside us for the, the journey, right? Um, I think one thing that I find very appealing about the...... idea of a potential appointment is the fact that we have somebody in the district who has been here for an extended period of time, who knows the district incredibly well, and also can see where we may need additional support, particularly as we think about the additional funding that we've gotten through an override and how we might want to implement some of those things. We haven't had that in the pre- like previous searches, nor have we had the funding in previous moments in time either. And so, I think I'm sitting right now, in terms of pros and cons, really thinking about having someone who's been here for a bit longer, who knows exactly where they would want to take the district, versus perhaps going through another search process without a guarantee of having somebody sit longer. So to continue the conversation, again, wanted to just be able to discuss pros and cons of both of the things that are put on paper, or to elevate other things that may be considered as well, as we think about this decision. Again, want to open the floor to s- hear other people's thoughts, reactions, as you read the memo, uh, yeah, and as you got a little deeper. Mr. Hartman, why don't you take it away?

▶ 1:33:29 Speaker 8: Um, thank you. And I was reflecting on some of my colleagues' comments. I was j- thinking about Mr.- Ms. Driscoll being on the committee for 14 years, if I got that right. 18. It was like... 18, I'm sorry. But that's okay. (laughs) Um, six-

▶ 1:33:40 Speaker 2: You lost me for

▶ 1:33:42 Speaker 8: a while. (laughs) Four years there, Matt. Six, six superintendents, um, I've been on the committee for two years and I've worked with three superintendents. Half of the superintendents are during the two years that I've been on this committee. Um, without a doubt, I think that, that shows that, that we're struggling to, to im- to, to get to a place where we have a long-term person in place. Um, and I think to everyone's points across the commonwealth, that is an issue. Uh, it is harder and harder to find superintendents that will stay in a district for a very long time. Uh, I think we've seen that quite acutely here. I think we need to have some stability around where we're headed. We have had so many questions hanging over us for so long. Um, multiple overrides have come before the public, multiple superintendent searches. Multiple other issues have come before us, and we have finally gotten to a place where we've, we've covered some of those issues. I, I think about my school committee training, they talk to you about budget, policy, and superintendent, the big things you're doing, right? Those are the things you're responsible for. I'm gonna say that I, I think we're doing a pretty good job on the Policy and Planning Committee this year. (laughs) Uh, but budget, we've, we've started to really solve that issue. We're, we're here with the last one on superintendent, thinking about how do we create stability in that column. It's a really important question because, um, we need that stability to really get up and going. And I'm, I'm interested in getting up and going. I feel like we've been on pause a little bit in Melrose, trying to figure out these other questions. I want to get up and going as fast as possible. I think we're in a place where we can. Um, and I think, you know, we've, we've heard a lot of really important things about how it is important to have stability coming into this, this, this really key role. We've heard about loyalty, we've heard about how long somebody has been here. Um, 20 years is a long time. Um, you know, and I hope we can, we can learn more about that 20 years through this process, that we can learn more and the public can learn more. Uh, but I, I feel like, uh, we need to find that stability so we can get going as soon as possible in January and, and beyond with, with what we need to do in this district. I think about hiring processes that I've been part of, not as this committee, but, um, I've done internal and external hires. Um, and both have been successful. But to Ms. Driscoll's point, you can do any series of interviews and still not really know a person. You can have any number of people review that person and, and go through their resumes, ask them tons of questions, um, come up with a perfect search committee, and still end up in a place where you, you have a short-term person, somebody who moves on, somebody who has other goals. It's, it's maybe not even a problem they've encountered. Maybe they have other goals that, that go beyond where they are. Um, and I think, you know, going back to that point of stability, we've got an opportunity here potentially, uh, uh, about, um, moving forward with, with a, a process that, that involves a stability that already exists. Mm-hmm. Um, and hopefully we can build on that in the future years. So, uh, you know, I think those are, those are my bigger thoughts on it. I, I'd be encouraged to hear more from others at the table as we, we move forward on it. But I'm, I think, you know, my conclusion is I'm, I'm really just ready to get going with moving our district forward quickly and implementing, uh, what people have, have been waiting for for a long time. So I'm eager to do that.

▶ 1:36:53 Speaker 1: Thank you, Mr. Hartman. Anyone else?

▶ 1:36:58 Jen Grigoraitis: Thank you. Um, so I think I, I probably come at this from a slightly different perspective since I obviously have a different role than all of you. Um, I first wanna thank Ms. Berman deeply and publicly for the leadership that you have shown when you were thrown a curve ball in June of last year. Um, and I think I may be the committee member that you probably talk to the most often, so you're welcome and I'm sorry. (laughs) (laughs) But I, you know, I am really grateful for your leadership and think that you are an incredibly strong candidate for this position. I also know that as the chief executive on the city side, I employ over 200 people, all of whom go through a hiring process for their job, whether it's cleaning the buildings of our high school or serving as a department head, which also includes a public process going before the city council. So I know there's two options before us. I'm gonna sound like a politician and say I don't love a binary choice. Um, I feel like what I wanna see in the next superintendent is someone who is ready to hit the ground running, who deeply knows not just Massachusetts, which I think is incredibly important, but Melrose as a district. And I, while I think ma- I agree with everything you brought up, Ms. Rizzi Thomas, the ability to direct our budget, which has been, and understands the history of- Mm-hmm. ... funding and lack thereof and the consequences of that in this district is really important. Mm-hmm. Um, like Mr. Hartman, I've been here for two years and I'm on, I've done two budgets with three different superintendents. Um, but I do want to consider, and I've had some conversations with, you know, HR on the city side just to think about options. How do we have a more public conversation about what that future looks like? Because I do... it is the highest paid position. ... in the district, it is one of the highest paid positions within city government. It has an enormous amount of responsibility- Mm-hmm. ... and I want to make sure that we are having a transparent and collaborative discussion about what we all see for the future of Melrose. So I, I have some, um... I certainly understand the concerns about a big search, but I also know I've had multiple positions on the city side that are critical; the fire chief, the director of planning, the CFO for the entire city, which had strong internal candidates, all of whom went through some sort of process in order to be appointed to their final position. So, I just bring that as a slightly different perspective.

▶ 1:39:09 Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you.

▶ 1:39:12 Speaker 4: Mr. Kelley, go ahead. Sure, thank you. Um, I think, you know, sitting here tonight, we've sat through six months of interviews with Ms. Berman. Um, I've not heard one complaint from anybody in the public about her. In fact, tonight we had positive comments from the union as well as one of the l- uh, administrative of our largest building. Um, and both of them commented about loyalty. Uh, Mr. Merrill in his email to us talked about her loyalty, starting here as a 22-year-old and spending, um... I won't say the number of years 'cause I know- (laughs) ... we got some math people out there, but spending- (laughs) ... several years here, and then struck by the comments from- (coughs) ... uh, our union leadership who said that she has a knowledge of the district and loyalty that nobody else would have for Melrose. And I think that's... Both of those comments are incredibly, um, impactful for me. I also think, um, we've got big issues ahead of us in the coming year, um, and we have somebody here who wants to be the superintendent, has demonstrated that she can be the superintendent. I don't think we could possibly find somebody better, who on her first day on the job would know who to talk to, who's the principal at the X, Y, and Z school, how to get the police chief on the phone if there's an issue. I mean, those are all things that I think we're very lucky that if, uh, we were to move forward with Ms. Berman and she would accept, we're in a really good spot. She had a very positive evaluation by every member of the school committee at our last meeting in November, so I think that that's there. And she's actively already engaged with the planning for the unit's A, B, and C contracts. So, I think she has really demonstrated to me that she is a very obvious candidate for this position. I don't see a huge need to do a nat- uh, uh, certainly not a nationwide search. Mm-hmm. I mean, we're not gonna get somebody from California who's gonna wanna move to Melrose. Like this is not... Let's be real here. Um, uh, and then I think, you know, she's demonstrated, she's stepped up. I don't see that there would be a... Possibly be b- be a better candidate. And I also think it's really important, um, throughout my experience of hiring internally, that you've got people who you know they've demonstrated their ability to do the job, and I think it's okay to, to go that route. So, I would certainly hope when we, we sort of meet and discuss next that, uh, the first option wo- would be the consensus of the committee.

▶ 1:41:35 Speaker 1: Thank you. Ms. McKinder, go ahead. Thank you. Um,

▶ 1:41:40 Jennifer McAndrew: I just... I don't know if I'm being, like, extra reflective 'cause I'm coming on my time at the end of the school committee. God bless you all. (laughs) (laughs) Um, uh, but I just want to start off by saying, like, how, um, how excellent I think this committee is. I mean, I just listened to all of you talk about this so thoughtfully, um, and I know that everyone has, um, you know, the absolute best interests of Melrose and the Melrose public school students, um, at the fore of this conversation. Um, I think we have an excellent interim superintendent as well, who gets to sit here while we talk about, um, her future, which is... You know, this... These are always public hiring processes. Um, and excellent deputy, interim deputy superintendent as well. So, I just... I wanna thank everyone. Um, I thought I might just sort of try to capture what I'm... What I heard from everyone so far, um, what some options are going forward for us, um, and then I, I think I'll... You know, I'll say what, what I think we shouldn't or should, should do within, as well just personally, um, as everyone else has shared. So I'm hearing, um, you know, uh, some really, um, clear, strong support for a potential appointment of the interim superintendent to the superintendency permanently. Um, you know, there's the two options, the two paths laid out in the memo. That is certainly one, um, for... And I'm not gonna restate all the reasons that, that people have said tonight, but I think they're been really compelling. Um, there's also the idea of the f- the full, the full search. Um, I, I think I'm also hearing some, some concerns about the, you know, moving directly to the, um, to the appointment, um, and, you know, is there kind of another option. I... You know, I've been thinking a lot about this over the past couple of weeks, um, and, you know, I think there may be some things we can do within the two options, um, and I just kinda wanted to voice those out, um, before I give what my own views are, just because I think, um, it's worth kind of putting everything on the table, in terms of trajectory, I think. Um, I do think those are the main two paths forward. I don't really think there's, like, a lot that we can, we can or should legally stray from, but I did wanna say that, you know, in some ideas that we could consider, um, with the appointment of an interim superintendent, um, that is pending contract negotiations. That would be what the vote would be, if that was the vote. Um, and so within that, um, negotiated items could include, um, and again, this is all subject to negotiations, we could consider a two-year contract- Mm-hmm. ... for the superintendent. Um, most superintendent contracts are three years. Superint- current interim superintendent is already serving a first year, so that could be an option to do two years and sort of keep the interim superintendent on the three-year overall, um, contract cycle. Mm-hmm. Um, we could, um...... talk to the superintendent, even make it part of the, the contract, that there's, um, public listening sessions in January. Um, uh, for, you know, the, the new superintendent, if that's the will of the committee, if that's the direction we go and if that's negotiated. Um, we could also have a consideration within the contract negotiations of a public review of roles and responsibilities and job description. Um, uh, you know, putting that out, um, out there. Um, these are just some of the things I, I've been thinking about over the past couple weeks about, you know, is there sort of... What is the framework within those two options? Is there any sort of additional considerations we could take? Um, and then there's the, the search process itself. Um, I guess just to say where I'm... So that, uh... You know, maybe not in, not at that (coughs) . ... moment of no interest to the committee, but I did want to sort of put that out there, right? Um,

▶ 1:45:46 Jennifer McAndrew: I would say that, um, from my experience being on the committee, um, these eight years, what I do not think we should do is some sort of truncated search. I personally do not think that is a good idea. I don't think we should do, um, you know, kind of come up with another kind of search process. I think whether we love it, hate it, have been through it six times, five times, three times, two times, the superintendent search process in the State of Massachusetts is pretty well established. It's what's laid out in the memo. And people who are at the level of applying to and considering superintendencies in the commonwealth expect that process, and I think they have a right to expect that process. And so, um, you know, I, I think anything less than that, you know, maybe there's some tweaks we could do to speed it up, for example. But anything really that differs from that I think would be considered unserious actually in the field, and I would not, um, support something like, you know, a shorter posting or, you know, seeing what we... you know? I just... I, I think it's, um... I don't think that's a good idea. So, I'll, I'll say that's my own view. Um, and, you know, I'm... Just to say, 'cause everyone's been so generous in sharing their thoughts, um, I, um, want to continue to talk as a committee. We will talk next week at our next meeting, I know. Um, I, um, am, you know, really compelled by and agree with many of the comments that were made tonight about Ms. Berman. Um, I think, you know, as Mr. Kelley said, she's been interviewing on the job certainly since July 1 with us, um, but actually throughout her years in this district. Um, and I, you know, I just... I agree with much of what's been said. I'm not gonna add to it. I thought Ms. Rassou-Thomas's long list of attributes that she's looking for in a superintendent were quite good. Um, I would add to that someone who really knows Melrose, um, is actually incredibly unique qualification that we would have in Ms. Berman. Um, and, you know, I've been... Just to say, uh, finally, um, this idea of, um, change. You know, we've all mentioned how many superintendents we've worked with. Um, mine, mine is five. Uh, five superintendents, um, over eight years. Um, I, I also was thinking about this, um, the other day, you know, I've also served with four mayors, you know? We talk a lot about the five superintendents. (laughs) Um, four mayors, um, and there was a year, uh, where, um, in one election cycle, nine of the 11 city councilors turned over- Mm-hmm. ... in one year. So, I mean, the can-... And, you know, was... Mr. Hartman talked about the overrides and the... You know, we have had a lot of change, I mean, in the past decade in Melrose leadership across the board, um, and that can be great. Um, it... There's so many good things about that. Um, but one of the things that I was thinking about is actually, um, not so much the, the benefits of change versus stability, but, um, what else has happened during that time. Mm-hmm. And one of the things that I've seen happen is that some of our more junior leaders in the district have grown into these leadership roles during that time. Um, and, you know, probably eight years ago, they, they weren't ready to be a superintendent or interested in being a superintendent or deputy superintendent or the principal of the 6 to 12 campus, but now they are and they're serving in those roles. And I, I think it's actually a really terrific, um, testament to the community, to Melrose and Melrose Public Schools that we have these leaders who are in these roles now. Um, and I'm actually thinking about that, um, you know, w- we're talking about the superintendency now, but I'm thinking about all the other leaders who are in those roles now and the actions that I think the committee should consider taking over time. I, I won't be here after January 11th or whatever it is, but, um, you know, the... There are really important leadership changes that have happened and people who have grown into those positions, who love Melrose and who, who know Melrose. So, I'll just say finally that my, you know, my decision in this will be guided by what I hope I've always used to guide my decisions on the committee, and that is, um, what is best for Melrose and for kids in Melrose. So, um, thank you for listening to that long, rambling series of thoughts. Thank you. Are there any other comments as we discuss pros and cons this evening?

▶ 1:50:27 Speaker 1: Ms., Ms. Rassou-Thomas and then Mr. Hartman.

▶ 1:50:30 Speaker 2: Just, yeah, briefly, I, I think that the mayor has a very good point in terms of it's important to include the public in the process and for it to feel like we have vetted someone, you know, like who's gonna be in the most important role other than the mayor in s-... In, in the city. Like, you know, you both have very tough jobs by the way. Um, so-I mean, I'm ha, I'm open to hearing ideas, but I also think, um, (clears throat) we should be really thoughtful about what we have, 'cause what we have, I think is potentially an outstanding superintendent who could grow in the role. And y- you have to have the traits in order to grow in the role, and you have to have good mentoring, and we still have John Macero helping, right? So, uh, but I, the last thing I just want to comment on, and then I'm gonna s- stay quiet and nurse my cold. But, um, the only way you get to the point where you earn trust from people is over time and through experience. And that is just a priceless thing that we can't measure, is trust over time with people, including 400 educators. So, I just think that's a really powerful thing that we cannot ignore, and we won't ignore. And so, I think having the trust of the, the cabinet, if you still call it the cabinet, you know, having the trust of the leaders, having the trust of the educators. Um, there's no way everyone in this city loves you, and we would never expect that, 'cause that's impossible. I would invite anyone who has any issue with this idea of talking about a longer appointment, to give us feedback in the next week, 'cause we're not trying to do this in the dark of night. We want to know what the public thinks, but I don't, also don't know how we can change the process other than doing a full search, which Ms. McAndrews just talked about, um, and meet kind of the needs of what, the check boxes that you have, Mayor Jen. So, I would really invite the public to tell us your thoughts, please. Either come to public comment next week, or send us letters, call us. We, we're pretty available. We wanna listen. (clears throat) That's it.

▶ 1:52:53 Speaker 1: Thank you. Go ahead, Mr. Hartman.

▶ 1:52:56 Speaker 8: Um, thank you. And I, uh, didn't mention my gratitude also for Ms. Berman and stepping up to the role that w- that I think none of you, none of us expected for you to fill in, in that time. And, um, it's been a pleasure to work with you through that. Um, I was thinking about Ms. McAndrews' comments about process and what we could do to, to potentially enhance this process, uh, uh, and, and make sure that we're respectful of the public through it. Um, as, I think, you know, many members of the public may reflect on this as, as a different process than what was expected. Um, and I, I think one element that is really important also that, that we haven't really touched on too much is, um, giving Ms. Berman a, a chance to, to, um, show herself to the public. Like, what, how can we incorporate that, uh, make sure that, that she has, um, that opportunity to, to also, you know, as we move through it, showcase her time here in Melrose? I think that's an important element of, of what is included in the, in the process of a, of a typical, uh, superintendent search is there's an opportunity to hear from candidates, to hear from folks, um, running, trying to, to take that, to get that job. Um, so I think that's one thing we should consider in terms of how we, we're moving forward is, is hearing from Ms. Berman a little bit about her, her interest in it, um, and, and what she'd like to do. I, I think we all have heard that over the last few months, I think though, in a different context. And I think it's important to, to provide that opportunity for the public as well. So, um, I would encourage that to be part of our next steps leading into our, our next meeting.

▶ 1:54:23 Speaker 1: Thank you. Um, Mr. Kelley, and then Deputy Superintendent, I'll let you round us out.

▶ 1:54:31 Speaker 8: Okay. Sorry.

▶ 1:54:32 Speaker 1: What? Oh, sorry. There's two Mr. Kellys. I just realized. Oh. Mr. Kelley is- Mr. Kelley on the committee- (laughs) ... and then Deputy Superintendent. We'll go to the other Mr. Kelley.

▶ 1:54:40 Speaker 8: Apologies, Mr. Kelley. Apologies about that.

▶ 1:54:41 Speaker 1: That was a confusing moment. Apologies.

▶ 1:54:43 Speaker 4: (laughs) Don't worry. Next year, it'll be Mr. Chairman.

▶ 1:54:46 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's the truth. (laughs) Mr. Kelley.

▶ 1:54:48 Speaker 4: (laughs) Um, just, uh, j- just two things I want to obs- sort of point out, um, where I think, um, for anybody that's sort of questioning, you know, wh- why hasn't a search already happened or what's been going on with this. I know it's a lot to ask people to follow our agendas, but we have had executive sessions with Carrie Berman's name on them this fall. We've had a session where we did a review of her. So like, it's not impossible to stitch together, I would hope, from the public who, who would care so much that they'd be sort of paying a little bit of attention to what's going on just through what has shown up on some of the agendas. Um, I think, you know, I've had a couple people ask me like, "What's the process?" And I said, "Well, why don't you go look at what the agendas have been, and maybe you can kind of see what maybe some of the discussions have been." Um, so, you know, without going into any of the things that were discussed in executive session, but those have been out there. And then, just the last piece that I, I've been reflecting on, um, through something that, um, kind of some of our more veteran members have, have talked about. I recall there was a recent city council meeting where, um, an outgoing councilor really thanked Ken Kelley for all the work he's done to sort of get everything going better on the financial side. I think, um, Councilor Garipay had, had said that. And I think it's really important to s- to point out that the finances are such a huge part, in that I think it's been pretty clear that we have two people that are working well together. And bringing in a new person could obviously, that new person could decide, "Well, they don't like that Mr. Kelley," and- (laughs) ... or they just don't get along, or there's conflicts, and, and whatnot. So I think, you know, that's a, a, we, we know in the history of the, recent history of the school district, finances have been an issue. I think just seeing their working relationship for me, and this is the last thing I'll say, has been a, a very positive thing. So.

▶ 1:56:36 Speaker 1: Deputy Superintendent Kelley, go ahead.

▶ 1:56:39 Speaker 8: Apologies. Soon to be Chairman Kelley. Apologies on everyone's part. (laughs) So, thank you. And I know that the, the committee has an important decision to make, and, and, uh, this just purely for informational purposes. I would echo, you know, what's been said regarding Superintendent Berman. Um, and to Mr. Hartman's point about the public, um, uh, getting to know Ms. Berman a little bit better, I see Ms. Berman every day.No exaggeration, she comes into my office daily to check in. Um, and I'm one person of 600 people and she sees me every day. Um, and I, I think that, uh, the other, Mr. Kelley's point, um, you know, Melrose budget has had challenges over the past couple of years. It is... The override is, is a, a huge help. Um, it is a lean operation, and that is something that Ms. Berman is completely at ease with. She functions well in it. She has relentless for high outcomes for kids. She has an extensive background, uh, reducing barriers for students and she's very good at it. Um, so, uh, just to add, I'm on superintendent four in four years, um, but it wasn't something that I said. But, um, uh, you know, I just say that for informational purposes, um, uh, Ms. Berman is extremely visible. Uh, she's always relentless about being kids first and, um, I think that she understands the, the schools are an enormous source of pride for the city. So I'll just, for informational purposes, wanted to put that

▶ 1:58:05 Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you everyone for your comments and discussion tonight. Uh, as we started off this conversation, the goal for this evening was to begin the discussion. I would anticipate that at our next meeting, which is on December 16th, we'll actually move forward with voting on a process so that we can also comply with the superintendent's contract. Um, so thank you again for having the conversation together this evening. And we will do one more thing- (coughs) ... publicly in our agenda, which is any outreach re- reports.