ORDNC-2024-5 : Requesting an Amendment to the Melrose Code of Ordinances, and adoption of a City Council licensing and application process, to address Food Truck Operations within the City of Melrose

Transcript (~1 h 10 min @ 38:12)

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▶ 38:05 Ryan Williams: So we have one order on the agenda tonight. Ordinance 2024 dash five requesting an amendment to the Melrose Code of Ordinances and adoption of a city council licensing and application process to address food truck operations within the city of Melrose. Um, we will need a motion to suspend Rule 27. Where'd I put it? 37 B. 2037 B. So Moved. Okay. Motion to suspend Rule 37 B by President Elli. Second. Seconded by Councilor Romanul Romanul. Roll call please.

▶ 38:43 Speaker 3: Vice Chair Romanul. Yes. Councillor Jamine. Yes. Councillor Vandiver?

▶ 38:51 Speaker 3: Yes. Uh, president Elli? Yes. And Chair Williams? Yes. Okay. Motion

▶ 38:55 Ryan Williams: Passes. So, rule 37 B is suspended and we can have members of the city administration come before us to speak on this.

▶ 39:08 Speaker 1: Good evening. Um, here, um, representing the mayor, um, before you is the new ordinance that we've drafted for consideration regarding regulation of food trucks. Um, as you know, nothing currently exists in the city, but, um, the process has sort of been ad hoc, um, at best to date, while we have this new use and this new type of business wanting to do business here, and of course, residents wanting to welcome food trucks here. So what you have before you tonight is a way to regulate that, um, make a fair and equitable, equitable process, um, for, you know, businesses that are looking to operate here. Um, but also to have some oversight. Um, and also to ensure that the public understands, you know, how we're regulating these businesses. So, um, that was sort of the impetus for this, that there was a need, um, and nothing has been in place, uh, to date. So that is what's before you tonight, and we kind of welcome questions, comments, and suggestions to, um, make this ordinance, um, a good one.

▶ 40:11 Ryan Williams: Any questions from committee members?

▶ 40:17 Speaker 4: Council Romanul,

▶ 40:18 Devin Romanul: Um, thank you so much for, um, putting this together and for, uh, having such a timely, uh, a timely ordinance. I am interested in drilling down on the 200 foot, um, rule because part of me, you know, wants to protect our small business owners that have brick and mortar establishments and make sure that with some of the increased costs that come with having a brick and mortar establishment, rent and insurance and all that stuff, um, heat, air conditioning, et cetera. Um, I wanna protect the role that they play in the community, but at the same time, I see a real value in small business symbiosis. Um, let's, uh, pulling an example out of a hat like breweries and, you know, food trucks go very well together. Um, and I think there's a, a lot of symbiotic behavior. So I'm, I'm curious how you landed on the 200 feet, if there are other places that you know of that don't have that, um, ruling. 'cause I think that's, that's one of the things that I'm struggling with here.

▶ 41:12 Speaker 1: Sure. Um, I mean, we did look at a number of other communities. We can get you a full list of the ones that we, um, looked at for similarities. I think that, um, you know, in a community like Melrose of five square miles, I think it's prudent to understand, you know, that there are small businesses who, you know, have been here for a number of years, contribute to the community, certainly pay fees and taxes that food trucks wouldn't. Um, and I think it's sort of, if this body, if we aren't here at some point, you know, to ensure that a direct competitor is not going to, you know, set up that we're not gonna sort of allow that right in front of, you know, a long-term business. I mean, we can't control, you know, private real estate, but we can control the public way. Um, and sort of that I think was the, the rationale in doing that. Um, but certainly open to, you know, kind of what you said in terms of, um, removing that or, or making that less, uh, stringent Mm-Hmm.

▶ 42:13 Devin Romanul: Some other thoughts, but I'll, I'll Okay. Come in later.

▶ 42:16 Ryan Williams: Any other voting members? I see Kim's got her hand up. Councillor Vandiver.

▶ 42:22 Kimberly Vandiver: Yes. Thank you. Um, yeah, I really appreciate that this is before us tonight and, um, I, I think it's a great, um, beginning at what, um, structure we could put around how this all works. I think, um, wherever it's possible, I'd like to, you know, make it, uh, a smooth process for people to get set up and, and provide value in the community as long as there's not a real risk there. So, um, I think, um, similar to councilor remodel, um, I, I'm not sure that we need, um, that we need the, the distance restriction, um, to be in place, especially since, because we will be reviewing each application on a case by case basis. And if, if there was, um, a, a specific case where, where we were concerned about what would would happen in that instance, that's something where we could, um, addressed it at that time. Um, some of the other areas I would like us to consider removing, um, from, from the regulation are, um, one is around, uh, no licensee or employee of the licensee shall consume alcoholic beverages or, um, controlled substances for four hours proceeding there, um, being on duty. Um, I think that's a little bit, um, further than we need to go and we could possibly, if that's something we're concerned about, redefine that. Um, in terms of the impact that we're concerned about, um, in terms of, you know, whether that's disrespectful behavior or something else, um, I don't think it's something we apply to employees of other businesses.

▶ 44:11 Speaker 1: Um, the, uh, I think the,

▶ 44:13 Kimberly Vandiver: the piece that we in here around all foods served or planning to be served, must be listed on the form, is a little bit burdensome. Um, and something we could possibly take out or maybe make a little bit more general as far as providing what they're expecting to serve in case they, um, want to change that menu at some point.

▶ 44:36 Speaker 1: Um, and the, uh, let's see, um,

▶ 44:42 Kimberly Vandiver: the, the pieces around setting up tables and chairs, I think, you know, certainly it wouldn't work in every space, but if, if, you know, a food truck has an agreement with, with somebody to use a certain amount of space, um, and there's room to set up some tables and chairs, I, I don't personally see why that kind of as a blanket matter wouldn't be okay. Um, so those are the, the suggestions that I would have for removing from, uh, the legislation. But other than that, I think it's a good start.

▶ 45:16 Ryan Williams: Thank you. Councilor Vandiver, uh, non-voting members. If no one else on the committee has any follow up questions? Uh, you want to, well, I

▶ 45:25 Speaker 1: Just, I just wanna sort of follow up, um, since rules are suspended, um, the chair, if I may, that, you know, um, as a licensing authority, you know, we are putting this for you before you to start with something, but certainly, you know, these are your regulations. So these are our kind of best recommendation that we've done in terms of the legwork. And that's, you know, why that's before you tonight. So you can certainly, you know, with these businesses coming to you for your approval of the licensing, um, you know, you're, you know, able to put that, that input in there. Um, you know, I think just, uh, to, to counselor, uh, van Devin, a couple, a couple of her points, um, in terms of the, um, menu that would be, that's something that the health department already requires on some of their, um, on their applications. So if you're, um, submitting your food plan or your food establishment plan to open up a restaurant, they require those menu items. Um, you know, so that they know certain things are regulated differently. Like I learned that rice from sushi is regulated differently. Um, you know, who knew? So, you know, Some and how they cook it and how they package it. Yeah. So some of that is, you know, around safety. It's not meant to be a burden, um, for that. And I think things around like tables and chairs, it's again part of like the public right of way, but um, you know, you're certainly allowed to, or, you know, you should, um, weigh in on some of the things that we've put forth, um, before you tonight And through the chair. Just to add to that too, that, um, the food safety permit, I believe is that's the name of the permit the health department has to issue by state law to a food truck or to any other business. So as far as requirements for menu items and things, those would be governed by those regulations.

▶ 47:09 Speaker 4: Council free carrio. So

▶ 47:10 Cal Finocchiaro: I was just gonna say, obviously I appreciate you guys putting this together because, you know, we have a lot of new food trucks entering the city and um, it's good to have, you know, a set of rules to go by. And I know it's a work in progress, but, um, as far as the 200 feet goes, I mean, we could add additional language maybe if it's like a competitive business. So if it's like a Mexican food truck and they're not parked in front of Mexico, Linda or osh, or maybe we could have some additional language. So, you know, that 200 feet,

▶ 47:40 Speaker 4: sorry, it's just this chair.

▶ 47:42 Ryan Williams: I apologize. This chair is making all noise.

▶ 47:44 Cal Finocchiaro: Um, so that maybe didn't always apply, you know, because they're parked in front of, um, a business that wouldn't be, you know, similar food. And maybe that's the importance of writing down your menu items so we know what you're serving. Um, so we could maybe, I dunno if that's possibility to amend that or Mm-Hmm.

▶ 48:07 Cal Finocchiaro: It's the will the committee. I know. I was gonna say, do I have to say, we'll hold that for a second. I just wanna just discuss that or just bring that up. Um, yep.

▶ 48:19 Ryan Williams: Okay. Councilor gpe.

▶ 48:21 Mark Garipay: And then, thank you, uh, Mr. Chair. Um, one of my questions was the two 200 feet. Um, you know, my concern was, you know, someone who may be a vendor selling pizza pulls up in front of Ella's or, or Murrow's house. So that's kind of the reason why I kind of like, but that language, like that, yeah. Mm-Hmm. Would, could, could be acceptable. Mm-Hmm. Um, you know, I think the overheads that some of the local restaurants have are, are a lot more than the, the food trucks. Mm-Hmm. For, for a hundred dollars fee. Um, I just have a couple questions. Um, did we get any input from the local restaurants when we were coming up with the, the ordinances? Get any feedback from from them?

▶ 49:01 Speaker 1: We did not. Okay. No.

▶ 49:02 Speaker 6: Um, and then

▶ 49:08 Mark Garipay: are there identified areas? 'cause I'm looking at, I'm looking at what, what the city, the council is responsible for when it comes. I'm assuming it would come in front of protection and licensing to issue this, but, you know, one of the issues we have to consider are traffic and pedestrian safety issues. Explain that to me. Because we don't even know where they're gonna be. Right. That's so they're not identified spots where we're gonna allow people to, to, um, set up business. Right. Like maybe, you know, a parking lot, whatever it may be. Yeah. So I am, I'm traffic and pedestrian safety issues. Like, it's tough for us to even consider that one. We don't even know where they're gonna be through

▶ 49:45 Speaker 1: The, uh, through the chair. So I, I think this process, they would have to identify the locations they're planning. So a lot of times they might wanna be in a city spot. They can't be in any specific location for more than eight hours at a time, which is why zoning isn't applicable here. Mm-Hmm. Um, but they would have to identify their spots. They can't just be pulling up in a public parking space and selling food. Um, the point of this is that we're gonna know where they are and they're only permitted to be there certain hours. Um, so to answer your question Yeah. So we will know where they're going to be. We should know

▶ 50:16 Mark Garipay: In, in certain locations are, um, governed by certain commissions, right? Correct. So if they, if someone pulled up along the common Mm-Hmm. Public Street, but would that have to go in front of the Park commission because it's a public street?

▶ 50:30 Speaker 1: It would depend on where they're parking, where they're asking to park. And if they're taking up a public parking space, I would say that would be the purview of the council.

▶ 50:37 Mark Garipay: The council or not the traffic commission. Right. None of this has to go in front of the traffic commission. No. Okay. But

▶ 50:42 Speaker 1: 'cause it's not a permanent but change,

▶ 50:43 Mark Garipay: They don't have to go in front of the park commission if they're just stay in front of the car and parked in a two hour parking.

▶ 50:51 Speaker 1: No, because parking spaces would be a public way. So that would be, yeah.

▶ 50:55 Mark Garipay: And they'd still follow the two hour parking and, and they'd have to move.

▶ 50:57 Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. If they're gonna do it on permanent basis. So that's why we specifically exempted one time events, things like that. Mm-Hmm. So if someone's gonna have, and it also exempts, uh, which I just wanted to note. Um, this doesn't apply If someone's hiring a food truck, for example, at their house for a birthday party, for example, um, because you're not serving the public as soon as they start serving the public is when they have to get a food truck license. So if they're just hiring at specifically for a party at their residence for a limited period of time, I've been told by the health director that doesn't even require a food safety permit. Um, so there's different processes depending on the location they're gonna be at, who they're serving, um, and then how long they're planning to be there. Whether it's multiple times or if it's just 1 24 hour period for an event. Okay.

▶ 51:36 Speaker 6: Um, right now,

▶ 51:39 Mark Garipay: currently all restaurants charge a meal tax. Do do we charge a meal tax for, do they charge a meal tax? And how do we monitor that? I'm assuming a lot of it's cash business. Oh, actually a lot of it's, um, I mean I think that that needs to get squared away. Mm-Hmm. Sure. Um, you know, 'cause we, here we're looking at ways to generate revenue because if we're not getting any meals tax a hundred dollars is not, not sure not helping us.

▶ 52:03 Speaker 1: We can find out there's A law that we have

▶ 52:04 Mark Garipay: a law on the books at Right. Restaurants and they would've to, we can charge a meal tax.

▶ 52:09 Speaker 1: We can find out. It may have to do with where the business is, um, registered in this city or town. So it's a Melrose based food truck. I will confirm that for you. That's a great question. Mm-Hmm. But that would be my kind of general understanding versus say the cookie monster, which is, um, based out of like Peabody or Danver. Right. But I'll

▶ 52:29 Mark Garipay: Jump, is there any way to, if a business applies for a license in there out not, not residing in Melrose, so the place of business is not Melrose, can the fee be a little bit more 'cause we're not getting the sales tax. I don't even know if that's an option. Council

▶ 52:44 Speaker 1: Has. Yeah. You can change the license fee that's in here. This is just a starting point. We have a hundred dollars. That's what we found in other ordinances like this. Um, but council's free to change the license fee or the application fee. Yeah, I'll say Yeah. 'cause we're putting,

▶ 52:55 Mark Garipay: we're putting the restaurants in a little disadvantaged when we're charging, they have to charge tax. And someone that's pulling up, you know, for eight hours and not, um, also fees and, I'm sorry, um, chairs and tables. It was just brought up by council of ver I just made a note. Um, would, would they be able to do that on public property if we pass something like that?

▶ 53:17 Speaker 1: No, I mean, and that's, I think a good point. I mean, one of the reasons they wouldn't be able to do that and putting that as part of the regulation also helps us, you know, we have limited enforcement, as you all know, it would pretty much be a call to the police if they've set up something and or our officers gonna go out there to tell someone to remove their tables and chairs. So by having something at least specifically like that, it helps at least with, by saying it's in the regulation, it's in the application that you signed off on, we would still might have to do some enforcement, but now there's no, you know, um, it's not too broad or general for someone to just start taking up additional spaces other than what they are permanent and allowed to be in at that time.

▶ 54:00 Speaker 6: Okay. Um,

▶ 54:04 Mark Garipay: and if someone has a license, um, we give someone a license who's monitoring? Like if there's a food truck out there, who's, whose responsibility is it gonna be to stop in to see if they actually went through the license process?

▶ 54:17 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's an excellent point. I, I, I would say it's probably similar to any other, you know, kind of business event that happens. I mean, we've already addressed a couple of food trucks too, in particular. And, um, the community I guess put the, you know, put the city on notice. I mean, we have people who will call in, um, I mean certainly, you know, the, everyone will get their approvals ahead of time. But in terms of, you know, knowing if a food truck is, you know, gonna be there, those who have permitted those food trucks already have, already are already being, you know, noti notified when a food truck is not where they're supposed to be or has not gone through the, um, appropriate approvals. But we won't, we won't have someone out there monitoring, um, you know, on a regular basis. But I think as part of this, you know, we do have that, they have to have the license conspicuously display it in the vehicle. So as of right now, you know, an officer on duty would have no idea whether someone has a license or not. But when you pass this ordinance, if we keep that in there, they should always have one there. If they're in a public spot, if it's an event, then they would've had an agreement with the city for that one time event. So maybe better communication needs to happen along those lines with the enforcing authorities.

▶ 55:27 Mark Garipay: If we can button up the enforcement authority before Monday somehow to make, I'm not, I'm not against this, but I also don't want to, um, hurt the local businesses too. Right? Mm-Hmm. They have, they have rent, they insurance, they have a lot more overhead. Um, and I know, I don't even know how many we're gonna have, right. We're not gonna, I mean, but end of the end of the day, I like the tax situation, um, squared away. I mean, that's, everyone has, all the restaurants have to pay a meals tax. This should be no different. Um, and on the required documents, um, I didn't see anything on there for a certificate of insurance. Proof of insurance, um, for the city as if they're on public property, someone, someone gets injured for all the common vicla licenses, we have to have that.

▶ 56:15 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that, I think that makes sense. To add to the list of required documents. I, I was trying to follow up with the city engineer to see if she requires it for the, her permit for the, the street, but I wasn't able to touch base with her. So I think it makes sense to list it separately,

▶ 56:27 Mark Garipay: Be as close to a common vehicle license as as possible. Okay. In my opinion. Yep. And then, um, on the police, uh, the police sign off, um, does that sign off include Cory checks? Like we require, um, restaurant owners?

▶ 56:47 Speaker 7: Lemme Have that.

▶ 56:57 Speaker 1: So we have state issued hawkers and peddler's license, so that would've already been, it's a, it's a license issued by the state that would be signed by Miller's Police Department. I believe it does include a check. Yeah. I can confirm that for you. You confirm that? Yeah. Mm-Hmm.

▶ 57:16 Mark Garipay: I think that's it right now. Thank you.

▶ 57:19 Ryan Williams: Uh, Councillor Hamilton,

▶ 57:21 Ward Hamilton: Thank you for chair. Thank you for being here this evening and thanking for Thank you for bringing this ordinance before us. I think everyone would like to see food trucks, uh, in the community.

▶ 57:32 Speaker 3: They're, they're a great ad.

▶ 57:35 Ward Hamilton: Um, so my questions, uh, circle more around regulation and enforcement. And I think we would all agree that the most critical part of a restaurant from a regulatory standpoint is the kitchen and a food truck's, a kitchen on wheels. Except that I don't think a lot of the prep work is being done in the truck. So my question would be, let's say we have a food truck out of Peabody, and maybe there are prep areas in Peabody, maybe it's in Newburyport. Who knows? Mm-Hmm. Who is inspecting those locations? Are we relying on those other communities?

▶ 58:12 Speaker 1: That's, I'd have to defer to director Anthony Chu on, on that question because he does the food safety permit applications. Um, and he's unfortunately couldn't be here tonight, but,

▶ 58:21 Ward Hamilton: Alright. So that for me, that that's a, a major hurdle. Yep. Um, secondly, uh, in, in order of things that I'm concerned about is enforcement. And I'm not a fan of additional regulatory legislation without a solid plan for enforcement that somebody owns. And we understand. Um, yeah. We could walk down the street. I could bring you to businesses that are selling us things in plastic bags and you can get plastic straws, and those are banned in this community. So, um, I would like, I would like a solid plan for enforcement in place, um, that we could vote on and approve. Um, the third point, uh, touches again on proximity to brick and mortar restaurants of a similar cuisine. Um, it seems like we're going down a slippery slope, whether we have any prohibition like 200 feet from a, a storefront as opposed to there's a prohibition, but we don't, you know, we'd care not to have, um, someone selling slices of pizza right in front of Mel's house. If we could avoid it, I think that would be, that would be a good thing. Um, and the final point, uh, has to do with under other required conditions, number 10, which, um, councilor Van Devin pointed to earlier, which prohibits, uh, the use of alcohol or unlawful substances four hours proceeding and while on duty. And I would suggest that the difference between this business and a storefront business is this one has an engine in four wheels and someone's driving it. So I, I think we wanna hold onto this, and I would even extend it, the question of unlawful substances. Um, marijuana on the state level is now a lawful substance. Mm-Hmm. On the federal level, it's still un unlawful, but we're not enforcing federal laws on the local level. So I'd like to see that language expanded to alcohol, or I think any controlled substances. Mm-Hmm. Because that person could get behind the wheels and wheel and, and drive away.

▶ 1:00:23 Speaker 3: Um, and that's all my concerns. Thank you.

▶ 1:00:26 Ryan Williams: Uh, I wanna check to see if Councillor Vandiver is your hand up for a second time, or is it from the first time?

▶ 1:00:32 Kimberly Vandiver: Uh, yes, it's up for a second time.

▶ 1:00:34 Speaker 4: Okay. Please go ahead. Um, thank you.

▶ 1:00:36 Kimberly Vandiver: I I wanted to add one other, um, uh, thought I had on this one, which I forgot to mention the first time, which is around noise concerns. It's the one concern that I've heard around the, the previous food trucks. And I know that we do have a noise ordinance in Melrose, but, um, you know, given that a food truck will be continuously operating, may have a generator sitting out, um, you know, in some cases we maybe should be more worried about the generator, you know, near an apartment building than near a restaurant or something like that. But, uh, I, I don't have specific language to propose or decibels, but I, I wanted to, to open that up to see if either the city wanted to propose something or if any of the counselors, um, wanted to pro propose something around making sure that the, the, there was not, uh, uh, a noise that was causing

▶ 1:01:32 Speaker 1: an ongoing issue where, where the food trucks were parked. Thanks.

▶ 1:01:35 Ryan Williams: Thank you President Meley. Really.

▶ 1:01:38 Speaker 2: Thank you. Chair Williams. Um, I think, so my questions

▶ 1:01:42 Leila Migliorelli: or comments are slightly out of order. Um, maybe just wanna start off by saying, I think my recommendation for how it seems like there's, there's been a lot of good points brought up by counselors and I feel like we might need some time in looking at them. And if there is no rush in, um, having a need for this light, this to be resolved and then voted on in July, I, I might suggest to hold a committee. Um, so I'm just throwing that out there, uh, because I think there's some points that, you know, I had and then others that are brought up that are really good and it, it might get unwieldy to do all of these amendments to try to do them all in one night. Um, just on a few things, because Councillor Garipay, uh, through the chair had brought up some good questions I hadn't thought of, and I just was quickly googling around. I think the, these food trucks are, um, uh, must have, uh, meal hack applied to them because it says in on mass, the Massachusetts site, uh, state site a meal includes, um, oh wait, sorry. Restaurant is any eating or drinking establishment, stationary or mobile. But I do, I do think we need that clarified. So like, that would be a reason to hold in committee. 'cause I wouldn't wanna vote for it unless we, we got some clarity on that. Um, then another piece, um, we did receive a, a, a public, uh, comment in via email that brought up a good point about language that is kind of also sticking with me too. It's on the first section, or sorry, second section, issuance of license fee. Section B before a license to a mobile food vendor is granted the city council must determine if the, if the public good requires it. I know that's like probably some standard or legalese language, but it does make it seem like we're like subjectively trying to decide about whether a food truck is a public good and whether it requires it. Um, and I, I think I would wanna think through,

▶ 1:03:47 Speaker 2: you know, to the point about traffic

▶ 1:03:49 Leila Migliorelli: and pe pedestrian safety, it does say that here. I just, I don't know if it's explicit enough. You know, another thought would be, do we wanna look at the section that, on the application that talks about, um, on number six, mobile food vendors should not park adjust adjacent to a bus stop, taxi sand loading zone handicap ramp. Is there like something else we would wanna add in there? I dunno if that makes it more restrictive or less restrictive, but it just seems like something maybe in there, um, could be thought of. I, I have mixed feelings on, as people have other counselors have stated on the 200 feet of traditional brick and mortar. Um, I do wonder if I, well, I like the idea of not having it be in front of a competitor shop. Like what's the slippery slope we go down of what's a competitor? What's not a competitor? Um, and then I, I would also have questions about the SEC on the application. Number 10, um, about the con consuming of alcoholic beverages or unlawful controlled substances if those are not there for other businesses. Yeah. These are businesses on wheels, but is there a way to just reference like maybe it's just owners operate vehicles as there should be operating within, you know, so it's like flexible as to what substances, I'm just trying to think of, my preference is always to kind of keep something as flexible as possible with, you know, inciting other outside law so that we are not getting overly prescriptive and then, then therefore have to go back to this again, um, quickly when we realized we have, um, done something else. The other question actually, and this is a question I have, the, the location

▶ 1:05:32 Speaker 2: of the, of the food truck, is that,

▶ 1:05:38 Leila Migliorelli: I'm sorry, I'm not seeing that here. So we're, are we saying that when they come to us for license, they will have to tell us exactly where they're going? Or are we just approving them as a food truck, where they're going, where they're going

▶ 1:05:49 Speaker 2: and then they can't switch that? Or if they, I guess I'm just wondering about like, some of the food trucks that we've seen around town who do move around town.

▶ 1:05:59 Leila Migliorelli: So if they're applying for a license to operate in one place, no more than eight hours in total, but it's not like eight hours in one location. It's no. Like they're gonna be in that one location eight hours one day, could be eight hours another day, but it's that one location.

▶ 1:06:17 Speaker 1: Correct. Consistently, you can limit it as you want. Right. We have in here. Right. But that's the suggestion. Make it temporary in front eight hours. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

▶ 1:06:22 Leila Migliorelli: Um, I, I dunno, I just think that's something for us to consider to, anyways. This is a long way of me saying I feel like we need maybe some more time with this, um, to look at. Um, but, you know, happy to hear others, you know, if we have, if we can get agreement on a few amendments, great. If, if not, my recommendation would be to hold in committee after and just have further conversation about

▶ 1:06:47 Speaker 4: it. Okay. Councilor Stewart.

▶ 1:06:49 Robb Stewart: Thank you Mr. Chair. Thank you both for being here this evening for a hundred dollars. This just feels like it's opening up a lot of headaches, quite honestly. Um, and I think to, uh, through the chair to, uh, president Mular to point, um, we really, I, I think we need another cut, another round or two, a couple things that I think that, um, are really important. I think we need a voice of the business community, the downtown business community. If we don't have that, we don't know. We have no idea. We need to hear from them. And, uh, we need to, to incorporate their, um, their perspective into our thought process within this chamber. So that way we are feeling as though, um, you know, we're considering all like, and the reason why I say that is, you know, you look at a lot of the businesses that are going down there that it, they're not as the language says, they're not pedaling or transient, or these are people that have invested a lot of time and energy to make our community better, right? The downtown to be better. And if I was a restaurant owner and I saw a truck that is within a couple hundred feet of mine that is directly competing with me, I'd have major concerns about whether I want to continue investing in this community. And so, to me that is something that we need to think about in terms of the, you know, and again, food trucks are great, right? But let's, let's think about this in the right way of doing this, uh, where it doesn't, um, inadvertently or unintentionally, uh, impact the, the community that we've, that we've built. We're working to build very hard. And Ms. Wick, I know you know this very well because of your previous role, so, um, so I, I think, um, you know, there, and I could go through a nitpick on these, but I'd rather not, I'd rather give you an email and just maybe red line and, and provide some, some thought. I think that would be a little more comprehensive and, and, uh, constructive in nature so that way you can see what my thoughts are and then you can collaborate, um, amongst yourselves as well as bring a lot of the other, other points. The one question that I did have, uh, that you brought up at the, kind of the very beginning is you talked about it that today it's unregulated. So how does it work today? Do they just kind of do whatever they want? I mean, is that how it's working?

▶ 1:09:23 Speaker 1: Sure. So, um,

▶ 1:09:25 Speaker 5: I dunno, I said a lot, so you may

▶ 1:09:26 Speaker 1: have to Yeah, yeah. Because If I just, if I may, um, through the chair, um, just in order. So, and we did, well, we didn't talk to businesses specifically. We do, we did talk to the Chamber of Commerce government affairs committee. We have a quarterly meeting with the mayor, um, and those folks who are on that committee and the executive director. Um, so they at least knew that this was something that was coming down. And our, I think thought coming outta that conversation was that it was welcome because they understand it's a good addition to the community. Um, I think going back to this, you know, being the regulatory body and, um, the, you know, license and protection and license committee approving them, that would be the purview to say this food truck wants to operate right in front of Turner's, but we, the council, you know, the licensing authority feels that that's not a good location for it. Um, so I think that, you know, it might be on a case by case basis, um, in terms of looking at where these potential food trucks could operate. And it's not just in the downtown, um, as well. Um, in terms of it, um, not being regulated, I think we've, as anything happens, something comes up to the administration, we just sort of like address it with what's in place. So what is in place right now are health regulations that, um, the health and human services department will follow in terms of the plans and the permits and the, um, you know, safe serve things that they need. Um, I'm not an expert on that, but they have a process where they check in with, um, Anthony Chewy and his staff, and then there is an occupancy permit that is exists currently today that is issued through the engineering department. Um, that is for, that's been sort of, it's already existed for if you were going to take up a parking space to have a dumpster in front of your house, or if you were going to take up some of the sidewalk space. Like I think Kamala's might be doing this to have some tables and chairs out there. So occupying the right of way. And so without something in place, we've sort of at least said, go and get an occupancy permit so that we know that you are operating at this location on this date. And, you know, there's a fee associated with that. Um, so we've just sort of used existing things and kind of molded the food trucks into that existing process, um, that wasn't made or I think intended for them when those processes were created, both for the health side and the engineering department side, I guess through the chair, there's just, there hasn't been a cohesive process, right? So the, the health director normally is contacted by these food service. He does go out and do the inspection, which he would still do as part of this. But for example, for like a, a city a public parking space, like Lauren said, they have to go to the city engineer. The occupancy permit isn't generally meant for a long-term occupancy of, for, of a food truck in front of a business. Um, and there's also no enforcement right now if someone violates that. So if the engineer says, you're only to be here from this time to this time, they say, who's gonna, who's gonna enforce that? I don't have a license with you. All I have is a occupancy permit. Um, there's no enforcement ability right now. And we have gotten complaints of that before, um, of folks saying that certain trucks may be, you know, in certain locations longer than they're supposed to be. Um, and there's really no enforcement mechanism on the books right now for that.

▶ 1:12:50 Robb Stewart: And so if we pass an ordinance that resembles what we're talking about here, then, uh, and a truck is operating without their appropriate licenses, that that's when we will be finding them a hundred dollars a day, as you stated in here. Is that, is that accurate? Yes.

▶ 1:13:06 Speaker 1: Or at the will of council suspending their license, revoking their license to operate.

▶ 1:13:09 Speaker 5: Okay. Mm-Hmm. Okay. Alright.

▶ 1:13:11 Robb Stewart: Um, has there been any thought about a maximum number of licenses?

▶ 1:13:19 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't think it came up in our, I don't think it came up in our discussions. Just, I, I don't believe there's any other restrictions other than, um, liquor licenses, number of retail licenses I should say, and the number of like marijuana establishments. But I don't know if, I don't believe there are any restrictions on the number of restaurant licenses, retail licenses, gasoline storage, you know, I'm thinking of all the licenses That come Oh, no, on, there's no restriction on a state level. It would be up to council to determine how many you were willing to issue.

▶ 1:13:49 Robb Stewart: Okay. Okay. I mean, I can see it both ways, right? You could, people, if you have a maximum number, then someone will go and buy all licenses and Holdem, and so that way no one else can go in there, right? So, alright. Um, so a lot of the points, uh, that I, the questions that I had, uh, have already been made, but I just want to reemphasize the, the concern about tax. Um, and I, I think that's a very important, and I think through the chair Chen, gar pay for bringing that up. Um, because I think that that gives an, in my opinion, an unfair competitive advantage to, um, any organization that may potentially not have the same tax burden as, uh, one of the competitors. So please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to accelerate this. I'm just, um, trying to get a better handle on where this could go and where it makes sense. Thank you Mr. Chair. Sure.

▶ 1:14:45 Ryan Williams: We have a number of people in q um, so I'm gonna start with Councilor Romanul, and then we're gonna go to Councilor Vandiver and President Melli, and then Councillor Aldine.

▶ 1:14:59 Devin Romanul: Perfect. Alright. I, I will be swift, but I just wanna underscore that I, I'm very much in favor of a motion to hold. I don't wanna preempt any of my colleagues, but I'm, I'm in total agreement with you there. Um, I understand the protectionist nature of, um, look, my wife runs a small business and if she had a brick and mortar location, if someone opened up her identical business on a food truck directly in front of her brick and mortar, I would be understandably p****d. So I wanna hold that idea in my, uh, you know, in, in my head. But I also wanna say that every study known to man says that increasing walkability, uh, begats economic activity. And so I, I'd encourage us to, uh, have that growth mindset. But just to, uh, reiterate some things that my colleague said, I'm in a hundred percent in favor of, uh, adjusting the legislation to have a meals tax incorporated. I think that's super important. Um, as well as the insurance stocks, I'd say perhaps we could find some common ground in the already existing language around, uh, livery license, which says, you know, thou shall not operate under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Um, and I think that if that already works for the city in that regard, this might be, uh, a good place to set rather than saying four hours. Um, I, I think the, some cities have had success in designating specific municipal spaces to say this is a place where mm-hmm, you know, uh, a monopoly space, so to speak. Like you, it creates a swifter process by which you can place your vehicle there. And then finally, I just say if we're, um, correct me if I'm wrong. Um, my, my question is, is this a hundred dollars per occurrence? They want to operate one day, they gotta put down a hundred dollars to operate in this one location on this one day, and they have to come back every single time. Or is this to be cleared forevermore? Because I'm curious, and this is why I'm interested in holding among many other things, is do they say we have to give notice every time we're gonna post up, or, you know, once they're cleared, uh, to operate if for the calendar year, could we then create a mechanism by which they say, Hey, we're just going to put a public notice or notify the administration a certain number of hours or days, or what have you, what do we agree upon? We're gonna be in these lo one of our pre preordained locations. So with that, I rest,

▶ 1:17:16 Speaker 1: So through the chair I, as this is written, um, they would come and get the license from the council, say the beginning of the year, and it would specify the locations that they're planning to be in. Gotcha. So they would pay the one time application fee, the a hundred dollars per day that we were discussing was a fine. So if they violate the license, it would be a hundred dollars per occurrence, so per day. Um, and that's under 40 20 1D which we have to have in the ordinance. Um, council is the only one that can put that ordained that, um, in order for us to have that enforcement authority.

▶ 1:17:46 Ryan Williams: Alright, thank You for quick comments. Councillor Romanul, um, Councillor Vandiver.

▶ 1:17:52 Kimberly Vandiver: Thank you. Um, I, uh, so I wanted to agree with, um, a couple of the speakers that if there's not a new urgency that holding in and committee might be valuable to, to make sure that we get something that we're really happy with out of the gate. Um, and also the point about meals tax that's been raised. Um, I also wanted to mention, you know, because I think we're rightly concerned about making sure that we don't cause harm to existing businesses, also mention the value that, you know, that these could have. Um, in the last week when I've been on vacation, for example, I, I stopped by an ice cream store that had extra space near them and had invited a burger truck to park on their lawn. Right? And, you know, that was an amazing synergy where, you know, now there's no other food nearby and the ice cream store gets more business because they have the burgers and, you know, the burgers are happy. The pe, the people selling burgers are happy, the people are happy because they can easily get to these things. Um, I could also see a lot of value, for example, if, um, if we had food trucks near Oak Grove and near a high density of apartments where we don't have any restaurants or coffee shops right now. Right. So there are a lot of potential, you know, benefits that, that we can look for and, and try to, um, try to structure this to encourage. Um, and, and so I think we should keep that in mind. Um, and, and to that end, we might want to also reach out to, um, the couple of food trucks who've already expressed interest in being in Melrose and find out, you know, I can kind of guess at what they might find burdensome or helpful, but, um, try to get their input as well as to what they think would be fair regulation, um, and a fair process and, you know, what they'd like to see and if they're choosing to participate in Melrose as opposed to another city. So, um, those are the, the rest of my comments. Thank you.

▶ 1:19:48 Ryan Williams: Thank you, uh, president Meley rally.

▶ 1:19:51 Leila Migliorelli: Thank you. Um, I, my comments are gonna be around process, right? For us in this ordinance. So first to, um, neglected to thank you all for all the research and work you did because, and I'm just correcting with the, or checking with the city solicitor, any one of us could have, as a counselor, put forward an ordinance to, to do this. And thankful, thankful for your work and resources and able to compile this, which would probably be difficult for any single one of us, because we do not have staff and this is not our full time job. So thank you for, for doing that. So I think the next steps, if I am understanding, there are some questions for, um, city solicitor legal questions that I think you're offering to answer for us or get that information. But in terms of amending this ordinance that falls to the council, you are not going to take our recommendations, edit them, and turn them back around to us. It would fall to the committee first Mm-Hmm. To make amendments. So within our, that group to make amendments, agree to those amendments, then bring them to the full council in which everyone can, you know, weigh in more amendments or whatnot. So that, that is the process, just to be clear. So everyone's not looking at you to, to, to make these edits. Am I getting that right? Yes. Yeah. Okay.

▶ 1:21:15 Leila Migliorelli: So, um, just to clarify through the chair, that, that, you know, if, if someone wanted to make amendments tonight, we could do that. We can hold them, have further conversation in legal and legislative, which obviously non-voting members can participate in, but they cannot make amendments. And then it will go to the full final council for a vote and amendment. So I just wanted to level set that, because I think some of this conversation has sounded like it's, you know, you all are making additional edits and that's not what's happening. That's on us. Okay. Thank you.

▶ 1:21:41 Speaker 4: Councillor Jamine.

▶ 1:21:46 Maya Jamaleddine: Thank you. Um, I wanna thank, uh, both of you for being with us, uh, tonight and for, you know, sharing such an important information. And I think it's important also for, um, the, the, our community in general and the economy. Um, I have few questions.

▶ 1:22:05 Speaker 2: Um, how many, um,

▶ 1:22:08 Maya Jamaleddine: store currently are vacant in Melrose?

▶ 1:22:16 Speaker 2: And I totally understand if you

▶ 1:22:17 Speaker 1: Don't have, I don't know how many vacant storefronts there are in Melrose.

▶ 1:22:22 Speaker 8: Okay. Um,

▶ 1:22:24 Maya Jamaleddine: and, uh, have we had any sort of communication with the chamber's, uh, comments on what they have,

▶ 1:22:33 Maya Jamaleddine: any input or if they are with or against, uh, this

▶ 1:22:41 Speaker 1: Through the chair? Um, so in our quarterly meeting that we have with the Government Affairs Committee of the Chamber of Commerce, which happened, um, maybe in the last month or so, um, we through with the mayor mentioned that this was going to be forthcoming. They were appreciative of something and, but we have not put the regulation before them as a nonprofit for the city. No, we have not.

▶ 1:23:08 Maya Jamaleddine: Great. And, um, um, I wanted to, um, revisit the, you know, um, the comment of counselor, uh,

▶ 1:23:18 Maya Jamaleddine: Stewart, about how many, um, food truck license are we, uh, limiting, um, at a time. Like what is the max number of licenses? Can we at one time or per day?

▶ 1:23:35 Maya Jamaleddine: Uh, um, not sure if we're gonna reach that, uh, number, but it would be good to have like a limit.

▶ 1:23:42 Speaker 2: Um, that's my, uh, recommendation and it's per day.

▶ 1:23:45 Maya Jamaleddine: Um, just to clarify, right, so after that day, it would expire and they have to remove it right?

▶ 1:23:54 Speaker 1: Uh, through the chair for the license from council? No, it's an annual license that they would be getting designating all the specific times and locations they're planning to be with their food truck.

▶ 1:24:04 Maya Jamaleddine: Okay. So it would be good for one year? Yes. But they would have to pay $100 a day every time they're gonna use it?

▶ 1:24:13 Speaker 1: No, the a hundred dollars per day is for a fine if they're, if they were to be in a violation, if it's a truck, for example, parked in the wrong location or past the time that council licensed them to be there.

▶ 1:24:24 Maya Jamaleddine: Okay. I'm sorry, I'm having, uh, trouble catching up all the comments, so probably, um, uh, I'm not getting the, uh, accurate, um, information. So thank you for clarifying this.

▶ 1:24:40 Maya Jamaleddine: Um, I, I would like to echo my colleagues', um, concerns and comments on, um, um, holding this in committee and revisiting and see if there's, uh, any way to make recommendation or amendment, um, in regards of this order.

▶ 1:24:59 Ryan Williams: Thank you Councilor Aldine, uh, I'd like to

▶ 1:25:07 Ryan Williams: entertain a motion to suspend Rule 21 C so that I can speak as chair.

▶ 1:25:11 Speaker 2: So moved. Thank You.

▶ 1:25:12 Ryan Williams: Second motion to suspend Rule 21 C so the chair can speak on the issue by president. Seconded by Councilor Romanul. Roll call please.

▶ 1:25:24 Speaker 3: Vice Chair Romanul? Yes. Councillor Jamine?

▶ 1:25:30 Speaker 3: Yes. Councillor Vandiver. Yes. President? Yes. And Chair Williams? Yes. Motion passes.

▶ 1:25:37 Ryan Williams: Okay. And I would also like to recognize Councilor Repe who asked to speak. Yeah. You had a question.

▶ 1:25:44 Speaker 6: Um, I did. Mine was more or less, um, um,

▶ 1:25:48 Mark Garipay: I think Council Elli kind of kind of clarified it for me. Um, but, you know, more or less a statement. I, I mean, I think everyone is is there, they just have a little changes they wanna make. I think the, um, discussion's been good. I think, uh, I I think we can all get there as a council. Um, agree. And, um, yeah, that's, uh, that's more or less just one thing on the, on the tax. I know that would be an amendment we'd make, but you'll clarify for us what we Yes, absolutely.

▶ 1:26:16 Speaker 3: Yeah. Thank you.

▶ 1:26:19 Ryan Williams: Um, so I do have, I, I have some questions and I, I think the motion to hold is, is a good idea, but I wanna remind the council that we are going to make the amendments. And so really we can do it tonight or we can do it another night. It is getting late. So I'm okay with holding onto this for a little bit, but we are gonna come back and make some amendments here in this room. Um, and the voting members of the committee are gonna have to agree on 'em. And I'd like to suggest what some of my issues with the ordinance are. And to echo Councilor Elli, thank you very much for putting this forward because, um, it's a great ordinance. It has a lot in it. Um, one of my, one of my points of feedback is that it has probably too much in it and some of the things kind of overlap each other in ways that don't need to be there. Um, so I think the fastest way for me to do this is to just kind of read down and, and remark on the areas where I think we need improvement and where I would likely, um, look to my fellow counselors or, or to support amendments down the road. Um, so in chapter 1, 27 dash 14, I would fully strike section B. It is, uh, overly prescriptive of the city council to ask us to make multiple considerations. Councillor Rae's point was that this should be as much like a Common Vic license as possible. And the Common Vic license is like three sentences long in the ordinance. I don't know what it is in the application because we don't see the application on the e code website. Um, but I think certainly a lot of what is in here will be considered by default. You know, if a, if a food truck comes before the council and says, yeah, I want to park on a third base at the Inc. You know, we're gonna say no. Right? If they say, I wanna park half on the sidewalk in front of City Hall, we're gonna say no. Like, this is just some common sense stuff that we don't need to legislate. And it kind of invites us to pick away at these folks when they show up to get their, um, to get their license from us. So I, I don't think that we need that. Uh, section B, um, section B at all. Um, I noted in 1 27 15 the license may be renewed annually. Oh, that's actually, forget that. I'm gonna scratch that because it then goes on to say the council will utilize the same criteria. They have to reapply every year with the same process. They have to submit all their materials and they have to pay the fee, and that's how they get their license back. Um, okay. So, uh, in 1 27 dash 16, we say mobile food vendors are not allowed to remain in location for more than eight hours. And Solicitor Phillips, you made mention that this had something to do with zoning. And I wonder if you could expand on that. Is there a connection between allowing these folks to operate, um, for more than eight hours? Is there, is there a zoning requirement that if they're there for more than eight hours, we have to make some kind of change to zoning?

▶ 1:28:57 Speaker 1: No. Did I misher you? No, not the eight hour threshold. Okay. My only point was where specifically defining that it's a temporary vendor and establishment versus a permanent one, which in which zoning would apply?

▶ 1:29:07 Ryan Williams: Sure. Um, so one of the public comment pieces, the only public comment piece that we received had a very helpful link to the National Street Vening Vending Initiative of the Institute for Justice. This is a pro bono law firm that goes around and challenges municipalities on their food truck rules. And a case that they, a case that they took on and won in Florida had two issues. The first was a time limit and the second was a distance from other businesses limit. And the reason that they won this case was because the Florida Constitution says that you can't give other, like, entities, businesses, the powers of the state. You can't give them the power to make a decision on behalf of the state. And Massachusetts Constitution has something that's similar. I'm not a lawyer, so I'd Have to look at that to see the Applicability. Yeah. Look at it. Um, so I think, you know, and I question like, you know, under conditions of operation having a restriction to eight hours on a given calendar day, I think that's included in the part above. Licenses may only operate at a specifically approved time, you know, so the city specifically approves the time and you say it's a temporary business, you can't go out more than them a certain amount of time. You know, you may wish to make an exemption at some point. Maybe you think that there's a use case like the in parking lot where you say, okay, we can have this food truck out here for four days during peak baseball season. You know, um, I just wouldn't wanna be too prescriptive in here when you could make that decision at the, at the level of, at the level of, um, the city. Um, okay. I have, so I, I wanna note for, for counselors reviewing this, that this is an ordinance and it has a license application attached to it. And so because we are the licensing authority, we are also allowed to make amendments to the license application itself. Um, and, uh, I'm just gonna go down the, the list here. Um, so I already have concerns about the eight hour limit. Um, and whether or not that should be in here, you know, vis-a-vis, just having the city tell people when they can be at a certain place. Um, I have a mobile food vendor must comply with all posted traffic and parking regulations. Like all vehicles in Melrose must comply with posted traffic and parking regulations. So I don't think that we need to have an extra mention of this in this application. Right? Um, and it should be a part of the discussion with the city. When somebody says, I wanna park in this spot. You look at the traffic regulations and you say, you can't because of X, Y, Z, or you can because we've decided that even though this is a two hour parking spot, we really want you to be here for six hours today. So having that in here that they have to comply with, all posted regulations kind of sends mixed messages to people. Like they're gonna get permission to be somewhere for eight hours, but then they're not gonna be able to stay there. 'cause when they get there, the sign says, you know, two hour parking or something. Similarly, the line six mobile food vendors should not park adjacent to a bus stop, et cetera. Handicapped ramp 30 feet of an intersection. This is over and above what we ask for everyday cars and trucks parking in spaces, including delivery people who are effectively driving trucks to deliver their services to Melrose, much like a food truck would. So, um, I don't see a reason to ban a food vendor from parking adjacent to a bus stop. They already can't park in a bus stop. But if there's a space like right behind a bus stop, they should be able to park there. That's my, that's my thought on this. Um, I am vehemently opposed to restaurant facilities within 200 feet granting permission for these people to do business in the city of Melrose. Uh, I, I can't imagine in the licensing process if Big Fin Poke came in and said, we wanna open this shop. And Turner said, no, you don't. 'cause we don't give you permission to do that. And I just think as a community, you know, people have, if we're gonna give them the right to come into the city of Melrose, it should be done, um, on the basis of the city council's decision making and the city's decision making. And we, we should not be inviting third parties, third entities into the process to, to just shoot it down. I mean, you could have a, an abutting business just come into the city council chamber and say, we deny this license and that denigrates the power of the city council, in my opinion. So I would, I would look to strike the, um, certainly the permission granted by license abutters. And I also really don't like the 200 feet rule. And I don't think, I, I think there's good evidence to support that when you put a food truck out in front of a business, that it supports the local economy and it supports businesses. And I think the city can have a conversation with the food truck owner if a lobster roll food truck wants to open up in front of Turner's, you know, to say to them like, you know, this is, this is not something that we, uh, like, and we would like to really strongly suggest that you go to a different place. And if they come before the council and we deem that these competing businesses should not be opening up in front of them, we can just say no, we can just deny the application. Um, but I think, you know, the 200 feet of a traditional restaurant, like if someone wants to park in the gas station across from my diner and sell tacos, that locks them out. There's just a lot. I mean, I don't think we want to have a hundred food trucks on Main Street. You know, I, I get that and I get that. Um, there are additional costs that brick and mortar businesses are incurring. I especially appreciate it and I'm happy that Councilor Garrett paid, brought up the meals tax. I would love to know more about how we, how we're gonna collect it. It's, I, I'm, I'm convinced that it's a meal under state law and that they are paying the meals tax. The only question is like, how does the City of Melrose collect it from them? You know, like, is it monthly? Is it daily? Do they give receipts? What is it? Um, you know, and and similarly, if we don't have a rule in agreement with some other counselors, if we don't have a rule that other businesses have to bar employees from testing for drug and alcohol and substances, you can't drive drunk or impaired anywhere. And so I don't necessarily see the purpose of having it in, um, in a license because of the enforcement problem, right? We're not gonna drug test employees in the, in the truck, but we might have somebody say, I think that guy's drunk. Go send the police out and, and, you know, talk to him. And that's kind of a chilling thing in my, in my mind for a small business owner who, you know, for food trucks, sometimes these are folks who are non-white. They're trying to start up a business, you know, it's a very low cost of entry for them. And, um, they're coming into a community that they don't necessarily know or have connections in. So, I'm sorry, that's a whole lot. I also, I think that you should add in 14, uh, we should add that no tables, chairs, umbrellas shall be set up in the public way. 'cause that kind of gets to, like, if you wanted to take that gigantic incarnation parking lot and put a bunch of tables and chairs and food trucks up there, that would be cool. Um, but not if somebody parked a food truck in front of the YMCA and set out five tables and chairs. That's a hazard. So I think in terms of like what we can and can't control, clarifying that they can't do it in the public way is more about pedestrian safety and less about protectionism. I'm sorry that, uh, my comments are really long. I try to get through 'em fast. I have, uh, a copy and I'm happy to discuss with counselors, um, as we move forward, um, I guess potentially holding this, uh, and try to revisit it at another time to make some amendments and get it through. Okay. Thank you. Councillor Repe?

▶ 1:36:25 Mark Garipay: Yeah, just a quick, quick thing. Uh, piggybacking on those changes on, uh, the Council of Van, then there's a point about generators on number three. We get a mobile food vendor may only operate between 6:00 AM 10:00 PM I think we need to, um, match that up with what our noise ordinance or noise ordinance is, which I don't think any, any commercial vehicles can do. The rubbish pickup can't be until 7:00 AM Yeah, I think so. At commercial establishment. So I think we would probably wanna adjust that. And I don't know what the 10:00 PM that that can be for conversation, but, um, I think the, the morning one, we, we should probably match that up with the, uh, with the, um, noise ordinance. And there was one other, oh, uh, is, I was just gonna recommend if we could, uh, attach that to the record your notes so we have it in there. But if you're gonna pass it out, that's fine. It's, that's fine. Yeah.

▶ 1:37:16 Ryan Williams: Yeah. I could definitely, I could definitely, it's, it's handwritten, but I could make a scan of it. That's fine. Attach it to the record. Yeah. Yeah, I can do that.

▶ 1:37:23 Speaker 6: I didn't write it down, so, Thank

▶ 1:37:27 Ryan Williams: You councilor, uh, Hamilton. Yeah, Thank you. Through the chair. And

▶ 1:37:29 Ward Hamilton: I, I don't want to belabor this and keep it going 'cause I know we're gonna, or this committee will continue to deliberate, but just to offer some thoughts. So I'm not part of this committee and I am, I think I understand the process. I would just feel terrible for the members of this council, you know, this committee, unless I'm under misunderstanding the process for it to then come to the council and we don't have, um, consensus because I think this is something that I, from what I'm hearing, everybody would like to see this work. I personally, I don't adopt, I don't, I'm not approaching this from the posture of we need to do this. How do we make it work? I'm kind of looking at it the other way, which is, should we do this? And, uh, if I understand correctly, this committee and then maybe eventually the council will make amendments, but you all will not. Is that correct?

▶ 1:38:19 Speaker 1: I'm happy to assist any council. Well,

▶ 1:38:21 Speaker 3: I, I, it's not like a Right,

▶ 1:38:24 Speaker 1: but not a, I'm saying, so the mayor's office won't.

▶ 1:38:25 Ward Hamilton: So what I would say is a couple of the concerns that I raised about answers about, you know, regulatory answers and inspection and mm-hmm. Offsite prep. Um, and what's our real plan for enforcement? So while this body deliberates, you know, how do we create an ordinance we can work with, you know, if, if I, if I'm not satisfied with those answers, there's no ordinance that I'm going to approve. And it's not, 'cause I don't want food trucks. I want food trucks, but I don't want another thing that's not being enforced. And to the point of the noise ordinance, I've been talking to some residents recently about gas powered leaf blowers, which gets some people very upset. Mm-Hmm. And it turns out the loudest it can ever be in the city of Melrose on Wednesday at noon, 75 decibels and a gas powered leaf blower is a minimum of 80. So they're not conforming. I'm not suggesting that we need to focus our resources on enforcing that, but are we gonna add yet another thing that we're not looking at and enforcing? Um, just a couple other real quick points as far as the meals tax I think is super important. Um, if a, if a thousand dollars in consumer money is spent in food trucks and it goes to other municipalities as opposed to our own restaurants, I think that's problematic. And, uh, with respect to that slippery slope of the 200 foot, you know, diameter from restaurants, I understand the concerns and I'm not, and I, and I, and I'm sympathetic to that, but at the same time, I'm sympathetic to our existing restaurants and how it could, and I almost wonder if, if we redlined on a map, just a limited area, like Main Street from Grove to Upham, and then a part of Essex where we have our re you know, a lot of restaurants, it's already tightly congested. Then over on Franklin Street where we have tapas, charra and mother's pizza, there's, they're not a lot of areas where there are restaurants. And if we identified these tight little areas and we just made it prohibitive, I think that could be, uh, a, a workaround. And then finally, um, to, to, uh, counselor, um, Stewart's point about, you know, this is a lot for a hundred dollars and I wonder if not necessarily limiting the number of licenses, but in increasing the cost and then, um, opening up more options as far as they don't have to have one limited location. If we redlined a couple of areas they had a license, then they could legally park wherever they're allowed to park. And, um, so that's it. Thank you. And I appreciate you indulging me

▶ 1:40:59 Speaker 1: Through the chair. I can I just clarify one, a couple things. Of course. Um, the a hundred dollars yet is the application fee. I don't have the fees for the other permits they would have to get as part of this application. I just wanted to point that out, that, that it would be additional fees. Mm-Hmm. I just don't have those exact dollars. We're happy to get those for you if you'd like. Um, and just as far as section B issues of license fee, that is something that a lot, a lot of communities have this in their licensing ordinances, and this doesn't necessarily have to be here, but I think it would make sense for it to be somewhere within council's licensing ordinances. Mm-Hmm. The reason for that is, um, if someone was to ever challenge denial of a license, counsel could easily point to these factors that are listed out and that are uniformly applied versus someone saying, they applied this, they didn't look at this for the other applicant. You have them clearly spelled out here. Um, same as if you have a public comment policy, it's always easier to point back to something that's been in writing that you can then point to as being uniformly applied to all applicants. So that's the only point I wanted to make on that.

▶ 1:41:58 Ryan Williams: So, um, I, I think too that this conversation has opened up. I speak Okay. One sec. Just,

▶ 1:42:06 Robb Stewart: Just quickly go ahead, chair. Thank you, Mr. Chair. To the chair. Um, I, I just wanted to, to comment on, uh, city Solicitor Phillips's, uh, mention that she's welcome to support the efforts that we're doing. Just my experience, Mr. Chair was extremely positive when I wrote the ordinance on the 5G, and she's extremely helpful and, and I would suggest that this committee leverage that, uh, to the extent that she's available and willing to help. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Sure. Thank

▶ 1:42:35 Ryan Williams: You. Um, invites a bit of a discussion on licensing reform authority reform in the city of Melrose. Something that came up with this body with the Madison Avenue store, which is now fantastic Poke restaurant. Um, and I think there's, I think there's a need to better understand what the council's role is, how we review these things, you know, how much power we have, what we don't have, how, um, and, and also I wanted to note that I, I believe Malden charges a $500 annual fee on top of their permit, uh, application fee for food trucks. So there are some communities that are doing both. So yeah, I mean, top of mind for me, besides the actual like line item amendments are how do we collect the tax, um, you know, the, the, the, the noise issue, whether they have a diesel generator or an electric generator, and when they're, you know, aligning the, I think the way to move forward with this is probably to, with open meeting law in mind, let me meet with folks and take their suggestions and try to come up with an ordinance that we can all agree on in the committee and in the council. Um, and hold it. What do you, you smiling at me for what?

▶ 1:43:50 Speaker 4: Nothing. Yes. President Migli,

▶ 1:43:53 Leila Migliorelli: I, I was going to suggest I don't, and I was, since you brought this up, I'm, I'm now gonna put the city solicitor on spot. What I was gonna say would, would be for open meeting law to, would be if the members of the committee had, um, amendments, we could share them with the clerk of committees to then compile and attach to the next order so we could review them together in the meeting. That would also give the opportunity for non-members to see those amendments, think about them to come to the meeting and talk about them, and then we would vote on them. Or is that, is sharing our amendments

▶ 1:44:32 Speaker 2: viewable by everyone? Is that, and you can take time to think about it.

▶ 1:44:36 Speaker 1: I, I, yeah. Um, because

▶ 1:44:37 Leila Migliorelli: I, it's just we're trying to strike the balance between following the law, but also being practically how, how do we get this done? And I think we're all in the same boat and that Yeah. We're trying to make this work, but Right.

▶ 1:44:48 Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, I think if you have less than a quorum that can kind of come together and they can send their amendment suggested amendments to me, um, I think if you're sending them ahead of time, you're sort of telling everyone else what your thoughts are. Okay. Prior to being in an open discussion, which isn't allowed for if it's more than a quorum.

▶ 1:45:04 Speaker 2: So you can't, we can't submit,

▶ 1:45:06 Speaker 1: I I view it similar as someone sending their thoughts on an item that's gonna be before council in an email per se. Yeah. Okay. If you're sending around a, a document with all the amendments. So it's, that would be my only concern.

▶ 1:45:16 Leila Migliorelli: It's gonna be, this is clunky because we have to do this, I mean, for whoever's really watching right now, but like, we have to do this in a way that we can't look at each other's amendments and go, oh, okay. Like there's Councillor Vandiver Bird's Amendments. I, I like those, or I wanna talk about this. Like, there's no, there's no smooth way to do this. Right? Correct.

▶ 1:45:37 Speaker 1: I I think that would be viewed as a serial deliberation. Yeah. Okay.

▶ 1:45:40 Ryan Williams: And there's, and there's also a process issue because the, the committee has to vote on it first. So Right. You know, councilor's not on the committee can suggest amendments, but they won't be entertained or, or it's up to the com committee whether or not they will be entertained prior to a council meeting. Mm-Hmm.

▶ 1:45:56 Speaker 1: So there could be sub quorum that takes the lead on it per se, and maybe comes up in an amendment document that then submitted for the committee to consider. And then amendments are made after that. Sorry.

▶ 1:46:05 Speaker 4: Alright. Councillor Gareg,

▶ 1:46:08 Speaker 6: I'm not on this committee. So if, if this was voted down

▶ 1:46:15 Mark Garipay: and we came back, um, and the, the administration came back with another order after, um, public or, uh, feedback from the council and then a new, a new, uh, order came down. But would that work? I'm not, I'm supporting this. I'm just trying to figure out the best way for, for this to happen. I don't know if that's something that I understand. It delays things, right? It delays things a little bit, but we're trying to get the best order that's gonna be enforceable and it that accomplishes everything that we all want to accomplish. I'm not part of this committee, so it's, you know, but that was just one.

▶ 1:47:02 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that the only thing that I'm concerned about doing it that way is then we're still getting all the, we're still gonna be coming then back to you. Like there may be things that you all are saying you're agreeing with, but maybe you disagree with it. So now we're just gonna be back, we're gonna be doing the same thing. It's only gonna be a different version of it where we've got all additional amendments or some people don't agree with the new amendment that was added but wanted and you know, the old amendment. So it sounds like the, what you suggested of Yeah. It sounds like there's lot of similar points on things that you all wanna change. So it might make sense for maybe two of you to work with my office, if that makes sense. And come up with an amendment that then the committee could consider and make amendments off of that. Mm-Hmm. If that's the easiest way to do it.

▶ 1:47:50 Speaker 4: Cool. Yes. Okay. Councilor Stewart?

▶ 1:47:53 Robb Stewart: Actually, uh, council Gpe made my exact point. Okay. I was gonna suggest kill the ordinance, create a new one, but sounds like this might be the better way. No.

▶ 1:48:04 Speaker 4: Motion. Uh, Mr. Chair. Councilor. President

▶ 1:48:06 Speaker 2: Melli, may I make a motion to holding committee? Yes.

▶ 1:48:08 Ryan Williams: Second. Okay. Councillor me Melli Motion to Holding committee. Seconded by Councillor Romanul. Roll call please. On discussion. Anybody have any more words they want to throw at this

▶ 1:48:22 Speaker 3: Vice chair? Romanul? Yes. Uh, councilor Aldine? Yes. Councillor Vandiver? No. Yes.