ORDER-2015-104 : Amend Melrose Revised Ordinances, Chapter 177-12: Snow and ice removal as set forth herein.

Transcript (~55 min @ 24:01)

Speakers identified by voice; unnamed voices are numbered within this recording. Auto-caption text — verify against the video.

▶ 23:57 Speaker 1: committee tonight could we proceed to the calendar please order 2015-104 amend melrose revised ordinances chapter 177 dash 12 snow and ice removal as set forth here in okay

▶ 24:07 Speaker 2: and this order comes to us recommended by belief from the Appropriations Committee which had a lively discussion relative to the order which I

▶ 24:19 Francis X. Wright Jr.: unfortunately missed I've been right thank you mr. president I'd like to move suspension of the rules to allow the city solicitor and the police chief and Mr. Shannon DPW Commissioner to come forward Alderman Wright moves that we

▶ 24:31 Speaker 2: suspend the rules to hear from various assembled city officials and dignitaries relative to this order second by Alderman Forbes on the motion all those in favor aye anyone opposed motion passes rules are suspended gentlemen

▶ 24:52 Speaker 2: would you like to make any statements relative to this order or would you like to entertain questions from the board good evening mr. chairman members of the

▶ 24:58 Speaker 3: board we're here tonight as a resource to the to the board I understand there were some questions in committee and we're certainly happy to answer any questions that members of the full board may have tonight so thank you at the

▶ 25:16 Francis X. Wright Jr.: floor Thank You mr. president so I start with the city solicitor mr. van Kempin you had an opportunity to review the recording of our committee meeting I did okay and you saw there were numerous questions I don't know if you are prepared to answer the questions that you that that you heard or if you want

▶ 25:40 Speaker 3: me to go through them yeah I mean I would prefer that members if they have questions of me in terms of the ordinance itself um I prefer to answer it on that basis rather than to try to recall every nuance from that committee

▶ 25:51 Francis X. Wright Jr.: meeting okay that being true I'm mr. president it's my position that the city solicitor has answered the question at least the questions that I have through his letter of last spring and as a result I don't have any questions for him I would move on to mr. Shana John you and I had a conversation over the weekend with regards to this and it's my understanding and I thought it was a good suggestion that perhaps one of the things we could do with regards to this because it would be new to the city is perhaps we could for purposes of single family owner occupied residential properties that we could suspend any penalty for a year just to see what we believe other potential issues with enforcing this we'd know who what the properties were that we went out and cited and we'd know then if there are issues with corner lots we'd know then if there are issues with a certain type of owner or certain you know properties that are vacant for the winter that type of thing but um i thought that i looked at that favorably and i think that's something that that i could support if that's what this board would like to do but i didn't know if you wanted to expand upon that and just expand upon the proposed

▶ 27:23 Speaker 5: ordinance generally well i mean in general you know the department in fact i could even speak for the administration we're always in favor of making melrose safer for the most part the types of calls we get in this regard over the winter of people reporting people not doing the right things and we don't have an ordinance as of right now to fall back upon when it comes to residential property um if this were to fail tonight this department is fully prepared to enact the existing ordinance in fact the letters ready to go out to businesses we can staff that internally but as we've discussed and i discussed with some of you if this were to pass as is even if we were just to issue warnings this year we would have to supplement the staff somewhat the police chief is here he doesn't have the staff to enforce as well so we would have to supplement our staff on a per storm event but um that's how we would that's how we handle it operationally and we could stop if that's the will of this board we could stop at warnings collect data and come back you know less than a year from now maybe come back in the spring and present what we found on the ground as the storms um took place great thank you

▶ 28:41 Francis X. Wright Jr.: um i did not ask for the chief to be here i'm happy you are here chief i don't know if you have anything you want to add or you could wait for questions from other members of the board um you know i don't want to rehash everything that was said the other night although i would just like to add uh or restate perhaps that um you know to me this is about public safety this is not about revenue raising this is about compliance about making us city sidewalks safe for our elderly to walk downtown to get to the drugstore to get to the supermarket to get to where they need to go downtown it's about allowing our school children to get to school it's about allowing our commuters we have more and more people who take public transportation in my opinion who walk down to in my ward walk down to West Wyoming or out the Main Street to get to the bus some of whom walk even walk to Oak Grove to get the train and I think need to do that safely um we all uh grew up um you know walking we all dealt with snow and all that but i think there are more and more cars on the road we do a great job on this board we've praised the dpw for the great job we do uh clearing the streets and and i think that people who walk uh by choice or by necessity uh getting to the hospital getting to nursing homes getting to businesses getting home generally um have just as much right to expect clear passage as people in vehicles do so and i said i i really believe that if you're going to live in a place like melrose just like if you live in a place like malden medford belmont somerville arlington which all have ordinances similar to this and that's just a few i looked at um that you make a compact that you will clear your sidewalk and i really believe that well it's 95 98 of the people in the city do it's the few that don't that are the problem and no more than you'd expect to drive down the street and run into a snowplow every 50 houses should you expect to run into a snow pile on the sidewalk and if somebody's going to leave it there or put it there they should be held accountable so that's my two cents worth and i'll uh defer to other

▶ 31:00 Speaker 2: members of the board mr president thank you welcome tram tozy yes thank you mr president

▶ 31:05 John N. Tramontozzi: so i think what i'm hearing from mr schenner and chief lyle is in the enforcement part of this ordinance is just not it's just not something that the city can can handle at this point is that is that correct am i reading that correctly we would supplement the workforce we

▶ 31:20 Speaker 5: would hire somebody on a temporary basis after each storm to go out and be the eyes and ears from an administration perspective our existing staff would manage you know where the warnings go to where the tickets go to we would answer the calls but you know as it's the storm doesn't end for us when the sun comes out we have our own property to prepare for reopenings we have our own corners to clear and we have our other day-to-day responsibilities to do the way the ordinance is today focuses on businesses there are uh the business districts are far and few compared to the residential neighborhoods that we would have to look at so that's what we would do

▶ 32:02 John N. Tramontozzi: right we i mean in chief is that if i mean do we have the manpower and the uh law enforcement to

▶ 32:10 Speaker 6: uh to enforce uh an ordinance when it's an emergency situation in a snowstorm the police were available we work very closely with dpw i i see that this is after a storm is is completed or ended that's when the problems begin because people are not being good neighbors and shoveling their driveway or or the curb cut or whatever it may be or the sidewalk in front of the property that's a difficult thing because we're still dealing with cars that are buried in the snow dpw has problems with vehicles that are snowbound in parking lots and we're dealing with all those toes so this is just to be another out of task so this would be a secondary thing for the police

▶ 32:48 John N. Tramontozzi: department well i mean we do have an ordinance on the books right now and i know it deals mostly in essentially with the business area and that's good and i think it's appropriate and for the most part i think all the minutes right is correct that the a good majority of the population in the city of mirrors respect their desires and needs of the public for public safety to clear their their sidewalks around their properties. But an ordinance without proper enforcement is an ordinance that has no strength and no bite, if you will, a lot of bark. But what good is an ordinance if it's not going to be respected by the community because there's no enforcement? On the other hand, I do believe that the public do as best they can um to um to get out there and shovel uh in in mr grover award one resident thank you for coming down in them and raising some issues i'm not sure that this um ordinance really uh addresses uh many of the um the issues that mr grover presented and i think the city can do a better job in getting as he suggested a list maybe of volunteers we don't need we don't need new ordinance to do that uh we can i think it um you know the last winter storm was it was a terrible storm and it was a very um you know major storm um hopefully one that we won't experience again in the near future but for the most part at least from what i saw in ward one we were out there we were out there shoveling we were handling uh and helping our neighbors uh and i think we have uh community members that will do that and they don't need an ordinance to force them to do that because they'll do it because it's the right thing and I think we should pursue the idea of volunteers to help the elderly and the disabled who certainly need help with their with clearing the snows in that area again I don't think we need an ordinance to force that to happen because we have good kind people in our city that will that do get out there and and do it um an ordinance um to raise money uh to for the city if that's what you want then so be it this isn't what we want and uh and i have some trouble with it uh as it's uh worded um anyways that's that's that's

▶ 35:19 Speaker 2: all i have to say mr president thank you all of them did you have your hand up i did thank you

▶ 35:21 Gail Infurna: very much mr president um thank you gentlemen for coming this evening uh john i was kind of intrigued to hear that you're looking at maybe like a monitoring program for this year could you expand on that a little bit as to what how that would go well if it's the will of this board

▶ 35:35 Speaker 5: we would take the ordinance as is and rather than rather than fine residential areas we would just issue warnings and almost as a public outreach type of approach we'd still have we would still have to bring that temporary help in after a storm to do it but we could do that and then you'd have real data to see where the issues are is the issue spread out through the city is the issues in localized neighborhoods is it repeat offenders that's that's what we could do so rather than issue take the second step and issue the actual fine we would stop at least in the residential areas um we would stop at the warning and the multi-family not on owner occupied we would take the subsequent steps of fines if we had to go that direction sure would this also be the opportunity

▶ 36:29 Gail Infurna: for your department to um look at the corner situations and see what you would do with people

▶ 36:40 Speaker 5: who live on corners and well the corner situation is is very sub subjective it's um we put the snow there and we'll continue we have no choice but to put the snow there we don't do it on purpose so we really have to use judgment when it comes to issuing a warning for people not removing snow that we put there um you know if it's a small storm and it's not that bad then we would expect it if it's you know february of 2015 obviously it's a different story um you know the ordinance as it's written doesn't define you know what's clearing a sidewalk is four feet enough it's two feet enough there's five feet enough so there is some i think the intent of the order is to make sure that people you know aren't walking down the sidewalk and have to get out into the street in front of your house because there's nothing passable to the call to the average walker

▶ 37:34 Speaker 5: so there is some subjectiveness that we have to we have to apply when we're going around and that's why we would bring one or two people in that would focus on this after a storm for a day or two bring us back to data issue the warnings and we could provide the board with that information and then

▶ 37:53 Gail Infurna: you could i was going to say so you would keep track of this data yeah we would we can do that

▶ 37:56 Speaker 5: we can do that in-house it's just we we don't have the manpower to go neighborhood by neighborhood

▶ 38:05 Gail Infurna: after a storm i i agree with alderman this is a a public safety issue when i i think everyone in this on this board um is certainly supportive of public safety so i i think it could use some work i think it's a good start to kind of get something going i like the idea of just monitoring this year and kind of collecting some data to see what it really is and um and in the meantime somehow tighten this up right now there's just all sorts of little pieces to it it's really kind of all over the place but i i certainly would like to see something being done so that this gets addressed and and it is not about the money i i know alderman wright had no intentions of this being all about the money at all and it is a public safety issue so i think if we look at this a little bit more closely um get some of your data as as the time goes on and and maybe we can tighten it up for the following years or something to do something with but it certainly has the right intent to it thank you I have Alderman McAteer

▶ 39:09 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: Margolis next please Oh Thank You mr. chairman some of the questions that I was going to ask all the minute Ferna has sort of covered but my my thought was that you know if this was somewhat of a pilot year where we were not going to be finding people but I guess you know the devil is in the details so my my question would be how would we be rolling this out how do you see DPW rolling it out do you see the ward alderman having neighborhood meetings on it do you see a mailing to every household something in with the water bills how are we going to communicate this to the public and can you like use the people use the assessor's office and their their maps to know which streets have sidewalks and which streets don't have sidewalks can you know have you so

▶ 40:00 Speaker 5: the answer is yes to all of that December 7th we would have a right it's a little bit late catching up to do the first thing we'd have to do in parallel with a public outreach campaign is to develop a locus map where are the sidewalks there are specific neighborhoods that don't have any at all there were some that have a sidewalk on one side and not on the other side so So we'd have to develop a city-wide map through our engineering office and with the help of our assessor's office and aerial maps and try to get out and confirm as much as we can before it snows. So this way we know where to look. We're not going to ask people who don't have a sidewalk to shovel grass. That would be the first step. In parallel with that, we would have to do a public outreach campaign. But the few, and we would use every source we have available. social media, we would obviously send Alderman information on it. The secret where it's been successful in other communities is the public outreach and it's also in the enforcement. They go hand in hand because although you tell people if you don't enforce it, it's

▶ 41:12 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: not as successful. Well, I mean, I think that ultimately we would want to see some enforcement because as Alderman Tramontozzi said, if you don't have some teeth to it, people aren't really going to necessarily the people who aren't complying now voluntarily aren't necessarily going to comply because you tell them they have to so they already should know that they have to in a sense but I think that at this stage of the game December 7th I mean I know we've been talking about this for a while so we're aware of it but I'm not sure how where the public is in terms of actually starting to find people and as as our member of the public mentioned tonight you know there are a lot of details and exceptions and you don't want people to be like you know panicking that you know the 75 year old woman who lives on her own can't get out there to shovel within six hours of the snow falling or whatever you mentioned that you would have to probably bring in temporary staff to do this you don't feel like you have anybody currently like who's on your green team who could kind of help out with this on a as needed basis or

▶ 42:22 Speaker 5: anything like that that that group is all out plowing snow during during and after snowstorms uh-huh I mean similar to how Chief Lyle monitors his parking lots I mean we would bring somebody in to monitor this ordinance after a storm and so I mean if they go back out the second day there's a obviously there's a

▶ 42:46 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: cost factor to that and maybe down the road if we were collecting fines that could be something that could be built into your budget correct we would pay

▶ 42:57 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: it through the fines mm-hmm at this point how would you see that being

▶ 43:01 Speaker 5: funded we would still fund the two fines because we can find on businesses right

▶ 43:06 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: now and are we finding our businesses now we always do we've always taken a

▶ 43:09 Speaker 5: neighborly approach but this year our patience is going to be shorter the letter that we send out is going to notify businesses of that they're responsible it's a business they have to keep the sidewalk and their frontage is safe and we're going to expect that so in the past we have issued a letter a second letter but we have the ability through this ordinance as it is right now to find businesses that don't plow and that is something we're going to

▶ 43:41 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: focus on this this winter so your expectation would be that you would have some revenue available from that that you could use to pay for this person in some fashion or whoever was that was you going to need to come to be an hour it

▶ 43:56 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: would be an hourly rate employee mm-hmm okay I'm the one other thing I would just like to mention is that I know you work very closely with the school department to establish the school routes and I do think that sometimes there's confusion on from the public especially newer residents that you know well how come that side of the street got plowed and my side of the street didn't so I know that information um the school department does a pretty good job I think of getting it out to the school population but I think any kind of outreach we need to be sure that that's included only because um some people won't understand why that part of the street's getting that sidewalk's getting plowed and and their and their side isn't you know so that would be my only other kind of request and And the idea is that Mr. Grover had in terms of beginning the process of identifying, you know, private contractors who, you know, maybe chief, we have to get them quarry checked. I don't know who we could put on a list, who could help the elderly for a reduced rate or volunteers or that kind of thing. So, I mean, I think there's a whole kind of interconnected piece that we need to make sure we have really in place before we go forward with actually finding people. But I think, you know, again, it is a safety issue, and we should begin, at least begin the process this year.

▶ 45:18 Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you. Alderman Medeiros for the first time.

▶ 45:21 Speaker 6: Thank you.

▶ 45:24 Monica C. Medeiros: Mr. Shen, now I know, obviously, this order isn't coming from your office, So I just want to make it clear that obviously you don't have all all the facts and figures It's not like it's something that you're proposing to us but nonetheless You know we have you know new technologies now that we've got the c-click fix and we've got email and Has your office kept any kind of log of these type of complaints even if they're not? Enforceable just to kind of get an idea of you know, how many you get

▶ 45:58 Speaker 5: no what you know I've spoken to actually I spoke to my staff even today about it you know we figured do we get a handful every snowstorm I'm some of the same people typically not during the storm or it's typically days after the storm and it's you know people getting out and about again trying to walk and then they get stuck and they're into the street and we you know and the questions do surround also you know sidewalk routes you know I'm trying to get my son daughter onto a sidewalk route and this is the problem happen do you have any

▶ 46:34 Monica C. Medeiros: idea what the cost would be to enforce this for yourself it's an hourly rate

▶ 46:42 Speaker 5: employee non-union no benefits and I I would say on an average six to twelve inch storm it would probably take six to ten hours to enforce this I mean the city's not that big once we get a map and know where to look we'd go out do a sweep and then do a second one and if the issue was still there drop the warning notice or fine off that's how I envision it working and in terms of I

▶ 47:13 Monica C. Medeiros: I know Alderman McAteer-Margolis mentioned the green team and obviously they're doing snow removal. I'm not sure if you had seen one of my thoughts about this ordinance that I mentioned at the last meeting is that if our goal is really to address the problem properties, I have a lot of concerns about the time that the snow removal is required in this ordinance and when enforcement could begin I suggested something like you know maybe

▶ 47:48 Monica C. Medeiros: five days after the storm you'd really see the problem properties is there a certain amount of time after the storm that we could do this enforcement with our current employees without having to bring on an extra hourly employee if we

▶ 48:10 Speaker 5: waited three days or five days to be honest once the storm is over and you know two three days after a storm we move on we have other day-to-day responsibilities we have catching up to do on other things that you know we do throughout the winter whether it be Christmas tree collection whether it's tree removal whether you know we're out what on a lot of water leak so all we're back in buildings the crew kind of goes back into a normal operation the only issue the other only other issue with that you know you get that back to back to back storm event there's really no catching up right you have to address it right away otherwise that's all i did it the first time i didn't do it the second time so if we're going to do it we're going to do it right and we should bring that extra help in and you would envision somebody

▶ 48:52 Monica C. Medeiros: just monitoring the city rather than addressing calls that are complete uh well we yeah we would

▶ 48:58 Speaker 5: forward him that information he could do both at the same he or she could do both at the same time

▶ 49:10 Monica C. Medeiros: the calls would still come through our office my other question for you in some of the instances that have arisen where people have let me know about issues have been in particular with say condominiums are those considered right now commercial property under our current ordinances or are they considered residential property and are they able to be fined under the current

▶ 49:35 Speaker 5: ordinance so condos are a great matter I mean apartments are definitely apartments are definitely commercial condo associations should remove this notes back that's something I was going to follow up with the legal office we're going to be we're going to say yes they should do it

▶ 49:52 Speaker 5: apartment buildings definitely should and we have some apartment buildings that did it last summer and those are also places that we're going to be focused on initial outreach to tell them that you know you're required to do it

▶ 50:06 Speaker 6: by ordinance and that's regardless of whether or not this goes through

▶ 50:09 Speaker 5: regardless of it I mean we're prepared to proceed in either direction you know

▶ 50:15 Monica C. Medeiros: so some of my concerns and I know I spoke about it at our last meeting and I you know I I do really want to point out that you know just this is a it's a it's

▶ 50:26 Monica C. Medeiros: tough situation because you know the snow is a heavy burden quite literally on you know on many people and you know we're stuck between wanting to make sure that our sidewalks are clear which is very very important but at the same time there is a public safety issue in terms of actually clearing the snow too and you know there are several several heart attacks that you know I'd have happened and and chief lyle might be able to to confirm this i know certainly have had a few instances in the past say five or ten years medical emergency medical emergencies due to people shoveling snow yes last winter so i i consider that also to be a public safety concern so i know you know everybody's physical ability is definitely different and i i think the time frame in this ordinance is pretty is pretty short for some people especially those who might work or those who you know certainly you know sometimes it takes a few days to dig out of these bigger storms i you know if we were to move forward with an ordinance like this i would like to see that time frame extended especially for single family owner occupied homes My concerns from last week, I think, on this still stand that, you know, this is an ordinance that requires a lot of enforcement. We don't really have this planned into our budget right now. I think maybe it is something we should look at and maybe collect data this year, regardless of this ordinance, so that we can take a look at it and have some real facts and figures and have some real costs so that we could look at, you know, taking a proactive approach and budgeting that and making sure that we have a fine system that would actually cover the cost of enforcement right now

▶ 52:33 Monica C. Medeiros: I just and I want to compliment the mayor's office I think we've begun the process of putting together these lists and having some people that have been out in some lists of shovelers that have been out in the blog and thank the you know many of them young people many students who have agreed to help their neighbors the people who just just go out and help their neighbors and thank all of them for doing that I think we have some of those those things in process I think we can do a better job of building upon that and having more public awareness and I think we can accomplish some of these goals without without finding right now and I just I don't see that we have the economic capability to enforce this right now and I'm not really sure that it's the best thing in you know and we have two groups of citizens where Public Safety is and I

▶ 53:27 Monica C. Medeiros: do recognize that but I just it's very important everybody should shovel their snow and and at the same time I recognize that I don't want to put too much of a burden on those who can do it but it just might take them longer thank

▶ 53:42 Speaker 2: you thank you for anyone else who let wants to speak for the first time

▶ 53:47 Scott M. Forbes: Alvin Forbes Thank You mr. president my question is for the city solicitor have you reached out to anybody else in other communities that have ordinances that are similar to this and have asked what their feedback is how they if they're

▶ 54:04 Speaker 3: successful not successful I have not I do know that the mayor's office I believe or maybe Public Works reached out to Belmont recently as I understand correctly their program is running with success in terms of enforcement and and ensuring that sidewalks are free and clear for passage but I have not reached out to multiple communities particularly where this is not an initiative of the administration

▶ 54:36 Scott M. Forbes: listening to your comments here tonight you know six to ten hours with a low staff employee if there's a handful of snowstorms every year if you do the math it's a couple thousand dollars during the course of a winter if that allows our streets to be or if we have this ordinance enforced and allow sidewalks to be clear so that kids have access to go to school so that people have access to public transportation and for residents to do their daily living tasks I am in favor of the ordinance at the end of the day it's it's a public safety issue but it's an accountability issue as well I know we all say that's a small percentage of people in the city that are negligent and clearing their their sidewalks most of people do a good job most of people are neighborly like we've like we've heard here in the horseshoe I help my neighbors all the time there are certain people who have health conditions that can't go out there that was talked about tonight but it's a simple fact that you can contact the city and let them know and then other actions can can be set aside for them to take care of our seniors to take care of people who can't do that job and if you are going on vacation that's a part of taking care of your business in your home if you take care of your pets you take care of utilities you make sure that somebody's there to clear your sidewalk as well whether or not this is the year to implement it with a fine system or if we're here to collect some data I'm on board with with the ordinance and I do support it if we do need some time to maybe work out some kinks then I'll be more than happy to have that conversation in that dialogue so thank you mr. thank you anyone else who wishes to speak for the first time father bird Thank You mr. president I

▶ 56:17 Jaclyn L. Bird: think what I'm hearing tonight is a lot of support for of course the public safety concerns that we have for students and pedestrians and at the same time i think that there there seems to be um a lot that we feel like we still need to work out um and it sounds like you know just to reiterate what we heard earlier so we don't have um we can't enforce this with our current staffing levels correct through dpw or through the police department um we have a rough estimate it sounds like of the hiring contractor employees right for enforcement would that be coming out of your budget mr shena we would yeah we'd pay for it

▶ 56:54 Speaker 5: out of our budget reimburse it with the fines with the fines okay and then how

▶ 56:59 Jaclyn L. Bird: fast how quickly do you think you'd be able to implement some kind of citywide public awareness campaign to let them know what's happening to let people know what's happening and what would the time frame be for that if we were to pass

▶ 57:13 Speaker 5: this within the next two to three weeks we could stop the campaign public

▶ 57:19 Jaclyn L. Bird: awareness campaign and who would be responsible for carrying that out we would Public Works would be responsible so that would be staff time and resources dedicated to that as well of existing staff of existing stuff okay and then would your department also be then involved with the mapping of the neighborhoods to figure out where the sidewalks are okay and then mr. van

▶ 57:39 Jaclyn L. Bird: Kampen can you or maybe mr. Shana I don't know who should answer this but what happens let's say if someone comes in I know we've talked a little bit about having a hold on the fines for a single-family residence but let's say this were to pass as it as it came before us tonight let's say we have a senior citizen she comes home from the hospital stay she's got a fine taped to the door who does she talk to

▶ 58:03 Speaker 3: so can you just walk me through the process so based on the language that i have reviewed in the ordinance and i am looking at paragraph e the superintendent of public works or his designee has the authority to grant an exemption from the ordinance if an individual can show what is described in the ordinance as a health or financial hardship so I presume a senior or a young person could show proof of some kind of health related hardship folks on a fixed income for example could show proof of some kind of a financial hardship. So that would be the sort of the process for getting an exemption. If an individual is cited with a fine, and I wanna speak to that in a minute, but if an individual is cited with a fine, they have the right to appeal that fine in the Malden District Court under Chapter 40, Section 21D of the general laws. But what I would want to point out as I read this ordinance is that the chance of a fine, and I'll have been right, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but the chance of a fine within the context of a single or two-family residential dwelling, I think in practice would be remote because the first offense is always a warning, the offenses are calculated based on the event the actual snowstorm so for example last February we had four bombs in the month of February each individual snowstorm is a separate event so if Alderman Forbes sidewalk is not cleared on that first one not to point on you Scott but if it's not cleared the first notice that the individual is getting from the city is a warning and I would presume that at that point that individual will comply and clear the sidewalk of course if public work has to go back again after the same event then the next offense Alderman Wright I believe is a $25 fine so I think the chances of actually fining in the one and two family context in my view are remote but you folks are the policymakers and I obviously leave it to your discretion and I hope I answered your initial question I think you did

▶ 1:00:33 Jaclyn L. Bird: yeah and so the Maldon District Court so there would not be a place within City Hall or within the DPW facility where someone could come down and say correct

▶ 1:00:45 Jaclyn L. Bird: this ticket and this is correct I'd like to I'd like to give my doctor's note now

▶ 1:00:48 Speaker 3: yes we do not have a municipal hearing officer who could handle this type of an appeal process the only thing that the ordinance does provide for is that petitioning for an exemption process so once the public you know awareness

▶ 1:01:00 Speaker 3: campaign unfolds in the community if a senior or an individual on a fixed income etc who's incapable of of cleaning their sidewalk or someone who goes to Florida during the winter they could communicate with the director of public works or his designee to see if they're entitled to an exemption under

▶ 1:01:21 Jaclyn L. Bird: the ordinance okay Thank You mr. Van Kempin at this point I feel like you

▶ 1:01:27 Jaclyn L. Bird: know from what I'm hearing and I don't want to speak for anyone else but myself I feel that I would be happy to see this order go back to committees for some further review it sounds like it's still something that's that needs some work at least before we pass an ordinance change I think in the meantime there are several pieces of this as far as the public awareness campaign on what our general guidelines would be in our expectations for homeowners that certainly we can proceed with in a timely fashion without necessary without the ordinance as Alderman Chairman Tosi mentioned several of these things can happen without the ordinance my thinking being that then send it back to committee tighten it up address some of the concerns that were brought up tonight and at the same time let Public Works continue with some of the pieces that don't need an ordinance to be able to tackle so I would like to make that motion to to send this order back to committee for further review

▶ 1:02:21 Speaker 2: Alderman Byrd moves to refer this order back to committee I'll second that

▶ 1:02:27 Speaker 2: motion motion is seconded by alderman Tramontozzi we have speakers for the second time i have

▶ 1:02:36 Francis X. Wright Jr.: alderman wright then alderman inferno thank you mr president uh i gotta tell you i'm a little perplexed i put presented this order back in march nobody proposed an amendment it's now december it's been to committee twice nobody's proposed an amendment i thought we were a can-do group here but all i'm hearing is we can't do this and we can't do that it's just not right it's just not ready no amendments so i i took the time to prepare this ordinance i think it's a public safety issue if nobody agrees with me just say so but if you if you want to propose an amendment i would say let's either vote it up vote it down make your amendment and let's move on one way or

▶ 1:03:22 Gail Infurna: the other thank you thank you baldman inferno well thank you alderman wright because i was going to have a little amendment thrown in there um in um hearing alderman Medeiros talking about four to five days i think that's way too long to wait i have the world is woken up and is out and about and being busy at you know on on day two um but i also know and i know personally in my field um during the winter last last winter um we had staff staying over at um you know in hospitals or in health care facilities so that they would not get home in time to really do this and i'm really looking to make an amendment and i believe we talked last week about some numbers and i didn't write it down but i thought this conversation came up last week when we were talking about it instead of the 6 to 12 hours of clearing that you know maybe like a 10 to 18 just to give it a little bit more room for people who are stuck at work that can't get home so that they can have that time to clear their sidewalks with their intention that they would anyways so I would like to see that number be changed But I think going into days is just like the kids are back to school, everybody's back at work, then it's still a public safety issue that's not being addressed if we're allowing people to not shovel their sidewalks for four or five days. I wonder if Alderman Wright would take this back as the maker of the order and maybe just tighten it up and put it all condensed again, because you do have another letter in here that's you know kind of in further amended if maybe we could get this in a a good order so that we can start to um to do it i i don't want to wait a long time um but i i do think there that things need to be tightened up there are things that um the dpw can be doing to to start into implementing some of this um but i would like to make an amendment of what did i say um 10 to 10 to 18. it's an order to send it to committee

▶ 1:05:31 Speaker 2: on that hello alderman you're seeking to amend paragraph b of the proposed ordinance to change the uh right the power league limits yeah it says six daylight hours maybe mr president we have a

▶ 1:05:44 Monica C. Medeiros: motion on the table to send it to committee yeah i understand that i'm trying to figure out what the

▶ 1:05:48 Speaker 2: the alderman's proposal is she hasn't made a motion yet i also have another speaker who wishes to speak for the first time before i call for a vote on the motion to amend uh motion to be

▶ 1:06:03 Gail Infurna: banned okay so it would be uh on in number b letter b yeah alderman medeiros is correct

▶ 1:06:06 Speaker 2: that we would need to vote on the motion that's on the table before we would entertain additional

▶ 1:06:17 Gail Infurna: motions okay you still have the floor alderman no i i i think i've said what i've said and i've

▶ 1:06:21 Speaker 2: made my point for the amendments i'll have them in boy cell for the first time john you have a

▶ 1:06:25 Robert A. Boisselle: unique machine in your arsenal for the snow war that's coming up in the future there are sidewalk plows is that correct correct how many do you have we have four you have four and those four are used basically to clean out the snow or make passageways to the school systems and clean out main street and so forth and do some of the main arteries or where the sidewalks are and so forth now when set do you do that at the height of the storm or when

▶ 1:07:03 Speaker 5: the storm is ending or when the storm is completed is it possible with for these

▶ 1:07:14 Robert A. Boisselle: units to branch out beyond the major you have major routes that you do I've seen the maps that you do to cover the schools and public buildings and main streets and so forth is it possible to branch out onto side streets down the line or after the storm after the main routes are done we look for connectivity

▶ 1:07:34 Speaker 5: in those routes we start we just go in a certain pattern if we wanted to expand that I mean obviously right now those routes are drafted with the school department and we try to get into collect the roads and main arterials and neighborhoods where the kids are so that we can get the kids onto a route into school if we're looking to expand it that's something that we could look into but I really wouldn't expand it that much well I'm not I'm not saying the

▶ 1:08:06 Robert A. Boisselle: entire city but more areas that are very flat and have the appropriate size sidewalk because some of the sidewalks in Melrose are not four feet wide they're basically almost two two and a half feet wide for instance Washington

▶ 1:08:20 Speaker 5: Street there's one side of Washington Street we just don't fit because of a utility pole the sidewalks wide enough but the utility poles are in the way yeah you would think why don't you do Washington Street which takes you to the commuter rail but that's why so what we do but we do Pleasant Street we only do one side of Pleasant because the other side again is too narrow right we could look at making some adjustments at this point times too late for this winter but we could monitor it and see what we can make yeah basically this to branch out

▶ 1:08:49 Robert A. Boisselle: to relieve the pressure of the public safety aspects and open up more sidewalks I mean it's always that first storm that it's always the heaviest snow and just to relieve that effort of the homeowner who may not be able to do it So within the six or 12 hours, you're making that first pass, and that's it. It reduces the volume of snow on the sidewalk and so forth. And also assists in public safety to get people to move out to the more developed and cleaned out sidewalks and so forth. How much do these units cost?

▶ 1:09:27 Speaker 5: What we purchased last year was, I don't remember the exact value, but around $130,000.

▶ 1:09:32 Robert A. Boisselle: Roughly, $130,000? Okay, thank you very much.

▶ 1:09:36 Speaker 2: you mr. president okay anybody else okay we have a motion that's been made in duly seconded to return this order to committee all those in favor of the motions please indicate by saying aye all those opposed I see a show of hands on the opposed please okay motion fails orders before you we

▶ 1:09:58 Speaker 2: haven't we have another motion relative to the order

▶ 1:10:06 Gail Infurna: Inferno would it be proper for me now to make an amendment thanks so on paragraph B make it 10 daylight hours after the snow has ceased to fall and then to be removed within 18 hours after the snow has ceased to fall

▶ 1:10:28 Speaker 2: hey alderman Inferno has made a motion to amend the order is there a second to

▶ 1:10:36 Speaker 2: motion i second the motion alden forbes seconds the motion is there any discussion relative to

▶ 1:10:44 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: the motion to amend alderman mcatear margolis i i do just want as a friendly um suggestion to call alderman inferna's attention to after the um 12 hours after it has ceased to fall or

▶ 1:11:02 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: three hours after sunrise you might want to change that too or not I mean when you're thinking about winter time ten hours after daylight is the next day basically because you know I mean you're it's not that much daylight in January

▶ 1:11:23 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: or February so I don't know if it might be easier to make those in terms of days

▶ 1:11:34 Speaker 2: or what do you think in there well yeah why don't we try to proceed there's a motion that's been made and seconded and let's discuss whether people are in favor or not in favor of the motion that's before the board right now

▶ 1:11:50 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: Alderman McAteer-Margolis you have the floor I am in favor of amending it in some fashion I am not quite sure that that is going to do the trick for me I'm trying to look at the clock and figure out if it's gonna work but I would I would still like to see some kind of language in here that suggests that this is a pilot year for this program so that if we leave it if we are to leave it as it is currently written which I think is has value because Alderman Wright has obviously been attentive to the time frame that he's put in here that you know we asked the Department of Public Works to do their best to try to enforce it in this manner as a pilot and see how it goes forward

▶ 1:12:41 Speaker 2: so the order that's before the board does not create a pilot program if that was the intention of the board additional motions would need to be made correct any further discussion on alderman inferno's motion to amend the order all those in favor of the motion please indicate by saying aye aye all opposed show of hands on the opposed please

▶ 1:13:09 Speaker 2: motion fails the order is before you Alderman Medeiros yes I respectfully I

▶ 1:13:13 Monica C. Medeiros: I believe that Alderman Inferna mentioned that six daylight hours in error.

▶ 1:13:32 Monica C. Medeiros: I would move to make an amendment from where it says in Section 177-2B, where it starts within 12 hours after the snow has ceased to fall or three hours after sunrise or two hours later. I would move to change this to within 72 hours after the snow has ceased to fall

▶ 1:13:57 Speaker 2: and end there that's three days after the snow okay Alderman Medeiros is making a motion is there a second to the motion does not

▶ 1:14:10 Speaker 2: appear to be a second I'll second the motion for purpose of discussion Alderman Mortimer seconds the motion to amend the last sentence to substitute 72 hours for 12 hours it's the discussion relative to that motion just Medeiros

▶ 1:14:27 Monica C. Medeiros: won't be laborless just the idea that this gives people time to actually get rid of their snow I think adequately accounts for if there's any getting paid people out to to remove snow because sometimes if it's a big snowstorm there's rush it it deals with people going to work it deals with you know giving people who might not have been able to do it within the first time a chance to get it done the people who are problem

▶ 1:14:52 Monica C. Medeiros: people are going to be the ones that won't get it done within that period of time and i think it gives our public safety and public works some time to settle down and deal with the real emergencies

▶ 1:15:07 Speaker 2: first. Thank you. Any further discussion on this latest motion to amend the ordinance? All those in favor of the motion, please indicate by saying aye. Aye. All those opposed? Opposed.

▶ 1:15:22 Speaker 2: Motion fails. The order is still before you. What's your pleasure?

▶ 1:15:26 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: Alderman McAteer-Margolis. I'd like to suggest an amendment to the order that, as it is written, adding that we implement this as a pilot program for the coming year and request that the dpw superintendent get back to us

▶ 1:15:50 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: periodically during the year maybe after the next after a couple of snowstorms and advise us as to the timeline and the enforcement okay just so i understand the motion

▶ 1:16:01 Speaker 2: you want to adopt the ordinance as written as a pilot program for one year so all provisions of the ordinance would be enacted for one year is that the motion uh with the exception of the fines

▶ 1:16:15 Mary Beth McAteer-Margolis: as as the superintendent has indicated residential fines okay that's a motion that's been made is

▶ 1:16:27 Speaker 2: there second to that motion second motion seconded by alderman inferno on the motion alderman wright

▶ 1:16:35 Francis X. Wright Jr.: thank you mr president um if the maker of the motion would allow i'd like to propose some further amendments to it um based on what i've heard up till now and based on her

▶ 1:16:44 Francis X. Wright Jr.: proposed amendment i would suggest i would move to amend b

▶ 1:17:02 Francis X. Wright Jr.: and change um in the second third to last line 12 hours to 18 hours and three hours

▶ 1:17:17 Francis X. Wright Jr.: to six hours so that would be and from one or two unit owner occupy residential buildings all snow and ice to be removed within 18 hours after the snow has ceased to fall or six hours after sunrise whichever is later and I would also

▶ 1:17:36 Francis X. Wright Jr.: propose an e2 after in line for 20 where this $25 that adding a language which shall be enforced commencing in December of 2016 I would accept those as friendly

▶ 1:17:57 Speaker 2: inclusions to my amendment so you're withdrawing your additional amendment you're making a new amendment adopting the verbiage that Alderman Wright has just read is that correct correct sir second to that second motion has been duly made and seconded is there further discussion relative to the motion to amend on the motion to amend all those in favor all those opposed most I see show hands on the post okay motion to amend passes the order as amended is now before you is there further discussion relative to the order as amended and so

▶ 1:18:43 Speaker 2: she could you call the roll please on the order as amended yes yes yes yes Yes. Yes, Alderman Wellerman. Yes. Yes, Alderman McAteer-Margolis. Yes. Yes, Alderman Medeiros. No. No. Alderman Mortimer. No. No. Alderman Tramontozzi.

▶ 1:19:01 Speaker 4: No.

▶ 1:19:02 Speaker 2: No. Alderman Wright. Yes. Yes, President Conn. No. No. The order fails.