Final Program Review: Science (45 minutes)

Transcript (~43 min @ 49:06)

Speakers identified by voice; unnamed voices are numbered within this recording. Auto-caption text — verify against the video.

▶ 48:47 Speaker 4: yes of course uh superintendent would you like to so as you know we have a as well-established process of program reviews we began it seven years ago we are making our way through every content area and the program reviews overlap this is year two of science so therefore it's the final year energy one of wellness and they will come forward in the fall to present on their first year i also remind the committee that science we ngss came into the national science standards came in and the new state frameworks came into being three years ago so while we were doing this review it was opportune because we were also assessing for how we were making that transition to the new standards and what work remains to be done on those standards. Dr. Adams, Ms. Greenwood. So I just want to start by

▶ 49:38 Speaker 6: thanking the teachers especially the teachers that participated in the review so the teachers that participated were Kelly Bradley, Blair Cochran, Gabor Kiosian, Jess Lombardi, Sarah McLaughlin, Carrie Scott, and Jillian Victor and then we also had Marilyn Cobbs, Michael McLaughlin, Jamie Parsons participate on the committee so a big thanks to them for taking part in this giving up their time in the afternoons to work with us on this so we start with the key questions the essential questions that we established for the science program review so the first one was how is the science curriculum instruction and assessment aligned vertically and horizontally how effectively are the science practices utilized how are they aligned horizontally and vertically how How well does the science instruction prepare students to be effective global citizens for STEM and other careers? How frequently do students have opportunities to make real-world connections? And lastly, how well does the science instruction curriculum and assessment meet the varied needs of students, including our high-needs students, students with disabilities, and our English language learners?

▶ 50:51 Speaker 2: So our process is similar to other program reviews. began the first year by with a review of the curriculum the instruction and the assessment each grade span collects information from colleagues presents them and we take each of the questions and kind of try to answer the questions based upon that kind of program review looking at documents looking at data looking at the curriculum and we try to see how those that document kind of review and collection reflects and answers those key questions we develop some surveys of both families teachers and students the surveys for students are done at middle school in high school and at the elementary we do smaller focus groups usually a fourth or fifth graders and ask their opinions those surveys try to reflect and gather information again on our questions we have one full day in the fall where we invite districts other school districts to come and spend a day with us it's a very full day goes from 8 in the morning until 4 and they visit sometimes 10 or 12 classrooms they meet with teachers they meet with students and again they're collecting and giving us feedback at the end of the day they give us feedback on what they saw in response to our key questions that we identified the group also then ends does kind of a triangulation of data where we look at all that data that we've collected and says what do what are the answers to those key questions and then begins a process of action planning and trying to devise based upon the strengths and the needs that we've identified a plan to move forward to help move the science curriculum and instruction in the district forward so the first thing we

▶ 52:51 Speaker 6: look at are the strengths of the program that we found we found that core instructional practices exist and they support the district's vision for science instruction and curriculum we found that instruction is based on supporting students to engage in hands-on and inquiry based lessons across all grades we found that the curriculum is outlined for grades K through 12 we found that students and teachers find engaging opportunities for hands-on and collaborative experiences in science using inquiry for learning across all grades K through 12 we also found that standards and scoring criteria of science have been developed and revised and that's an ongoing process just a couple days after school got out a group of three or four teachers actually we're working on that again so it's a continuing process some initial practices around personalized learning are emerging in grades 6 through 12 specifically digital portfolios project-based learning learning menus we've seen quite a bit of and the majority of students in advanced placement courses at the high school are attaining scores of 3 to 5 which is considered passing there's also been a increase in the enrollment in AP science

▶ 54:16 Speaker 2: courses some of the needs or opportunities for growth that we find found at the elementary level we've sort of we've outlined our curriculum units either based on open source materials what's readily available online and also an online platform called stem scopes which provides lessons videos all ready to go minus the materials so it falls upon elementary teachers to kind of gather up materials each of those lessons has a list of materials we've asked parents to donate materials if you're an elementary parent teachers may have asked you for help with some materials as well as PTOs and the principal's budget has also supported some materials we did collect last summer some big things that were harder for to get donated like a heat lamp it was harder to get donated and you need it and some bulbs so for some particular units there were some things like that circuits comes up I think in third or fourth grade those are things that are harder to get and you get donated that you kind of need and you can use year after year so we did some collecting of those pieces and gave them to teachers but I think that's what teachers would say the collection of materials as well as time needed to set up labs but now you also have to collect the materials is it is a particular need our stem scopes it's an online platform we went that way because we also felt like what available at that time three years ago from publishers was not quite aligned though publishers said lots of stuff was aligned when we took dig we dug deeper into some of those units they really were not they were selling something they said was aligned but was not so at that point there really was no really good choice for us this particular area is in you'll see reflected later in our action planning is an area we need to revisit again and think about especially for our elementary teachers what makes the both sense to really provide a real hands-on inquiry based science instruction for our students in addition we've outlined core instructional practices for Kate's grades quick K through 12 but they're not always consistently implemented for various reasons including change in personnel and we had a discussion today about that about the process of onboarding new staff as staff changes staff that would have participated in some of the professional development we did three years ago may not be there and so how do we make sure that new staff in addition to all the literacy and math needs especially at the elementary get also support in science as well as changes in science teachers at middle school and high school we found that science practices were all posted in classrooms they were often posted and teachers feel like they are addressing them through the curriculum and instruction but kids don't necessarily don't necessarily explicitly refer to them in our lessons so kids don't know when we ask kids what are the science practices do you use them in class they'll say oh no because we're not as explicit in our instruction so you'll also see that later referred in the action planning as Laurie said there's some work been done on the revision of the science standards and scoring criteria in science however they're not being active as used in alignment of assessment and you'll see that reflected also in the action plan where we'd like to now move toward now using them with students and going through that process to see if they need additional revision as Laurie said we found that there are some practices aligned to personalized learning in science classrooms we'd like to kind of expand those and germinate those more into more science classrooms in grades five through eight when we looked at MCAS we have a gap with our students with disabilities and high needs when we look at science results and again I I think this relates to science practices while there are connections in the curriculum that connect to the real world we may not be explicitly making those connections enough so that kids realize oh here's a real world connection and we need to be much more explicit and clearly identify those for students so that they see those connections more broadly so the

▶ 59:03 Speaker 6: recommendations and our action plan come directly from those opportunities for growth the first one being to increase the science achievement of special education students across K through 12 as dr. Adams mentioned we see a gap in our MCAS scores second to increase access to high quality k5 curriculum materials again she spoke at length about the need for that at the k to 5 level to strengthen the implementation of the science practice across grade K through 12 and that's something that within this the scoring criteria we hopefully we'll see that a bit more and also to continue to revise scoring criteria but more so to start aligning performance tasks and assessments to the scoring criteria so that teachers from K to 12 can start using that more

▶ 59:53 Speaker 2: explicitly in their classrooms we believe the process allows the science K through 12 to continue to align its work to the strat district strategy overview and much of the action plan aligns nicely to the work we did today with the district leadership we've identified some specific areas for growth based upon the program review and that will serve as an action plan at least for the next two to three years and we believe that if we do this work right we continue to work towards preparing our students for stem careers and the develop strong knowledge about the practices and the content related

▶ 1:00:38 Speaker 2: to stem the primary implication budget and policy is around funding that K through five requires funding for some materials and the continued professional development focus that is identified in the action plan as well that's it for

▶ 1:01:06 Speaker 5: purposes of discussion we do not need a vote tonight however the floor is open open for discussion if there are questions or comments yes of course so

▶ 1:01:19 Speaker 4: again when I look at this and thank you Laurie and Margaret for leading this

▶ 1:01:30 Speaker 4: work once again this has always been probably the most troublesome content area because of the new standards and we knew we were stepping into an area in which we had great resource deficit as well as a major shift in instructional strategies and practices similar to what we had undergone when we did math seven years ago if you all remember that that's when we bought the Envision math and we began intensive work around retraining teachers how you teach math and about having the correct materials this is probably and I think at that time if I remember correctly dr. Adams we were able to strike a deal with Pearson because we were willing to pilot their envision and they gave us K through five books for about a quarter of a million dollars framing a context yeah

▶ 1:02:33 Speaker 4: if we were to find an acceptable science textbook which there's mixed feelings about having I mean you know I'm always at the philosophy nobody should be teaching on from page one on September 1 and ending on page 300 and September on June 15th that's not how we teach but if we were to find an acceptable text that staff felt was robust enough and gave them good foundations I think you're looking at a hefty bill that's number one number two what makes science different having been a science teacher is the amount of consumables not just permanent equipment whether you're talking about weights and you know scales or test tubes or magnifying glasses or circuits at this level but there's a tremendous amount of consumables that our parents have been supplying whether it's pipe cleaners or empty paper towel rollers whatever it may be so this is a hefty undertaking and my third problem is in a

▶ 1:03:56 Speaker 4: state that counts itself as the leaders in the biosciences and is the major source of income for the state we are not doing enough authentic assessment and authentic in connections to authentic life and where this goes okay

▶ 1:04:15 Speaker 4: so you have those three major problems when you consider this and there is no easy solution what dr. Adams and miss Greenwood are proposing in the action step along with the team is centering on the instruction getting the instruction right so kids have the skills and can make those real-life connections and can think apply inquiry based practices but you're going to continue to have that issue around resources and the committee needs to be aware of that I think in our

▶ 1:04:53 Speaker 2: action plan for the elementary it's geared around three years I believe and first year is looking we wanted to pilot perhaps some physical science I think of all the I areas of science that's probably the hardest most material intensive and it's it's an area where elementary teachers tend to have less expertise we were also thinking of looking at and we do a process of looking at what's available at this moment is looking at some kit base so that it was an opportunity for more of the doing of science as well as looking for some more science nonfiction that might supplement the content so that kids we can do more integration with the literacy block where kids are reading more informational texts related to content the next area that's probably the next challenging for elementary teachers would be earth science the one teachers have the most strength around and it's easier to get stuff collected for the most part is the life sciences you're often talking like soil and seeds and it's a little easier to still some collecting of materials but it's still and teachers tend to have more expertise and knowledge around the life sciences then they do the other two so we're proposing taking a look and seeing what's available at the moment from publishers and resources and and and trying to take another look at what's available to try to enhance what we currently have and build upon what we've started thank you

▶ 1:06:42 Jennifer McAndrew: mr. McAndrew thank you thank you for all your work on this it's really impressive and important and there's a lot of great documentation in the materials you provided I just had two sort of general questions on the topic of budget and for materials in the override there was money for instructional materials and without I know we're going to talk about how that is being spent and broken down at a later date but is this the type of information that goes into the decision-making about how to deploy those resources since those are in the

▶ 1:07:21 Jennifer McAndrew: operating budget okay great and my second question was around especially at the k-5 level is more just like a philosophical question how much of a challenge is the schedule to science and especially at the lower grades where there's and rightly so I mean you need to learn how to read before you can read for science or social studies but how much focused on ELA and math is there just a time challenge at some of those grades time is always a challenge on

▶ 1:07:53 Speaker 2: multiple levels I think we are current reading curriculum certainly has lots of science and social studies connections so it's based upon kids are reading about science and social studies in literacy being able to connect more especially in the primary grades literature and stuff kids can read would be a great asset and help help increase kids access to more science I think what teachers often do in all K through 5 classrooms is that small time that's left for science usually at the end of the day we spend doing science so like we really want to focus on the doing of science during that time and when kids are reading and writing about science it often gets integrated into the literacy block so that kids can read about if they're if they're learning about the moon and the seasons they can read about it in literacy and even write about it literacy but the actual doing of the inquiry might be during that science piece so while there is certainly some block scheduling I think teachers do a lot to sort of try to integrate in math those extensions are not as explicit enough I think as you go up in the secondary level into middle school and high school teachers try to make more connections between the science and the math I don't think that happens as explicitly in the elementary mostly because teachers just don't make that connection themselves most elementary teachers don't explicitly see that connection and the curriculum in math doesn't necessarily specifically focus on that piece so I don't think that connections is as strong so thank you one of the other things that we've done

▶ 1:09:45 Speaker 4: and we've talked about it before in this chamber is we've encouraged teachers to specialize for science and social studies you know your elementary teachers are generalists they're supposed to be experts in everything and it's difficult especially as the frameworks have expanded so you will find at least in the three through five grades one teacher and our team will be the science expert one will be the social studies and that allows them to spend more time developing their materials their resources and their lessons and that has had some mixed success you know again the truth of the matter is people teach what they prefer and you know our teachers love to teach literacy they love to teach math and it's a little bit more struggle with

▶ 1:10:35 Speaker 5: with the sciences thank you any further miss Rosie Thomas thank you for all the

▶ 1:10:37 Speaker 3: reflection you did and all hard work on top of you probably have very big jobs as it is so I appreciate what you did for the overall vision of science at Melrose Public Schools I'm wondering if you have a number like if you almost like a moonshot number what number how much money would you need to really get all the resources that you think would make a as robust a program as you would

▶ 1:11:07 Speaker 2: ever imagine what's the number the curriculum materials can vary I mean some are labor intensive so if we looked at kits they can range from as little as four or five hundred dollars to fifteen hundred for a class and then if there are consumables you have to replace those consumables so if you did the math times 15 classrooms or if grades share kits and trade in kits so you use this kit first and then you another kit comes later and if they're shared between schools and classrooms that adds a challenge but so you can do the math if you did 1,500 times five schools per unit you'd come up to maybe $30,000 but we also if we're going to invest the money we want to look at the materials have some teachers pilot it because we when we looked at materials and we had some teachers pilot it teachers like oh no this is not appropriate because they took a kin for example third grade weather moved from kindergarten to third grade there's a strong focus on weather and climate and one publisher took a kindergarten unit slapped a third grade level and put it in third grade and the teacher opened it up and said oh this is too easy for the kids it's not appropriate and there were a couple of other instances like that we were like yeah we're not the publishers aren't quite ready so we really want to be cautious and really make a very good choice so that we can sustain that for

▶ 1:12:44 Speaker 3: several years to come so one of the things that just is striking to me and what I know from my own school where I work is that there's incredible opportunities for partnerships around this work especially where we live and I just wonder you know there's some even scientists in the room here you know there's there's so much money out there with the biomedical field being so close to us and I just wonder if we could do this through partnerships have you

▶ 1:13:13 Speaker 4: looked into project lead the way at all yes it's too prescriptive I do have colleagues are doing that don't lead the way tons but but lead the way is mainly

▶ 1:13:27 Speaker 3: about the computer sciences that's not what I've what I know about it okay so

▶ 1:13:29 Speaker 4: I've been you seeing it in terms of a lot of the maple organizations are using

▶ 1:13:38 Speaker 2: it as well and I think the cost to is prohibitive and we found it very

▶ 1:13:48 Speaker 4: prescriptive so well that's part of the problem yeah because you you have to you

▶ 1:13:51 Speaker 3: want to get kids thinking right and critically with the science inquiry

▶ 1:14:03 Speaker 3: steps and all that it's what I've seen from it at my school is that it's an incredible hands-on way of learning about biomedical science and tons of labs I mean it's so time-intensive for the teachers but there's also a lot of grants and there's I just wonder if there's a different way to think about this that we haven't gotten to yet so so related to what you really need to

▶ 1:14:22 Speaker 4: differentiate about is the secondary versus the elementary where we're struggling as the elementary at the secondary we have a robust science program we have a strong computer science track we have environmental science we have biology physics on AP physics AP and bio in anatomy and physiology what else do we have Laurie

▶ 1:14:55 Speaker 4: bioethical issues bioethical issues so the high school is very strong and again part of the reason it's strong is because we've said to our staff some of whom are career changes from the biomedical in the engineering field where do you want to go with this what you think is important and how does it align with the with the frameworks so they've built a robust program the middle school is getting there and they're getting there mainly through the personalized learning they're doing a lot around learning menus and options especially in the eighth grade they're getting stronger I would tell you the sixth grade curriculum needs work probably where we're really struggling is the elementary and that realignment that came about three years ago as Margaret

▶ 1:15:44 Speaker 4: has said has been disruptive and we have yet to become comfortable with it to

▶ 1:15:49 Speaker 2: tell you the truth and I think teachers at elementary understand the inquiry process and really do buy in I think the secondary is taking time to buy into inquiry but they're getting very close especially the middle school there that you can see a change in science instruction so elementary bought into inquiry I think it's access to really high quality materials and the ease of it because remember they're planning multiple subjects and so it's the ease and the access to high quality materials and resources that allow them to do inquiry because they buy into the instruction and they can organize good instruction around inquiry and engage kids it's really the access to materials and I think we'd see some great pieces one of the highlights of the elementary is the engineering curriculum from the Museum of Science really high quality materials high quality lessons teachers love engaging with the kids with those materials and so it's a real good example of when we have something of high quality and it outlines a real good process teachers can do great things with it it's a real highlight of the elementary curriculum right now is that every year we have and one of those units that kids engage in yeah and I've

▶ 1:17:07 Speaker 3: seen the inquiry nights at the Roosevelt and they've been fantastic and you can

▶ 1:17:13 Speaker 2: see how excited the kids are yes the teachers can do it too yeah you know so it's really that access to high quality materials and you're right we don't know what's out there I mean that could be that's part going to be part of our learning is to see three years later what's available and there are grants I

▶ 1:17:28 Speaker 3: mean the thing is is that you only have so many hours in the day and we can't continuously ask the citizens of Melrose in this the parents and PTO is to spend more money but i definitely think that there's there's a way to solve the problem because there's so many resources here in this area and people who want to get the word out and get kids excited

▶ 1:17:59 Speaker 1: about science so thank you for all the work that you did though mr brensky um thanks for all that uh the good news is my kid loves science he's at the uh horace man and uh he comes home and it's like his favorite thing so they're definitely doing it at the horace man and uh you know he's describing the clouds to me and everything more of a social studies guy i try to talk to him about that he really doesn't have any interest in it which is fine uh you know i think part of the uh thing we're leaving out of this picture is i'm not sure there's a district in the state in the at the elementary level that does this well like i think the emphasis and it's it's mostly you know the adults fault as usual is uh been on you know it's been on what's tested and uh you know reading and math are the areas that are tested until you get to fifth grade and i you know i know we're going to talk about the mcs later in the meeting but i don't think we can discount that piece also i think what the superintendent brought up is that you know the teachers every elementary teacher that i know they love to teach literacy that's their passion like that's they want to read all these great uh and introduce all these great uh readings that um authors have created and they love that in the science for some of them can be a challenge and um uh that being said

▶ 1:19:18 Speaker 1: i i love the fact that we try to divide it up between staff you know you teach social studies i'll teach the science and uh most districts that's what they do because it is such a burden to plan um i and i think if we could uh pool resources and how how often does staff get together to discuss science and uh those things within not just within the buildings but in the district would that be something that we could do or is that we had a group of teachers

▶ 1:19:45 Speaker 4: working together writing the units i mean that's how we got the units written we had teachers volunteering to do it get it done but it's you know what the competition is for time right so you could be writing and today the and today the Board of Ed

▶ 1:20:08 Speaker 4: approved the new art framework wonderful right so so gee I have you know 80 elementary teachers actually about close it I'll have about 90 elementary teachers next year and all this gets done after school and gee where am I going my writing social studies am I writing art am I still writing wellness you know it's tough it really is tough I mean our ideal situation is if we could pay people over the summer to write curriculum and you know that we've got a little bit more money from the override for PD that we could possibly do that but how much can you get done in the summer you know what it is to write a a write a curriculum no it takes it takes years right it takes years and i get that and i have

▶ 1:20:50 Speaker 1: but uh you know i appreciate the effort and i think that's the best way to go if you get the teachers talking and follow standards and they create the lessons right it really is uh the best way to go for this specific area i appreciate your efforts thank you any further discussion

▶ 1:21:17 Speaker 1: mr o'connell thank you madam chair um could you talk uh and you have talked about this but maybe a little bit more about um you know increasing the science achievement of special

▶ 1:21:30 Speaker 1: education students and what kind of shape and form that might take uh what particular challenges are presented and how we can help financially or otherwise i think one of the things that we're

▶ 1:21:44 Speaker 6: working on again overall is that personalized learning piece and i i think that that'll play a big part in helping our special education population a lot of especially if we're talking middle school seventh and eighth grade in particular have really embraced the personalized learning sixth grade as well but in seventh and eighth doing station centers where the teacher is more readily available to the students so for example jillian victor in seventh grade has this great centers rotation that she does where she does small group instruction while the students are working on other pieces and that really allows her to really get to those students

▶ 1:22:32 Speaker 2: i think if you look at the middle school data we've seen a little blip and an increase and we're hopeful that the change in instruction where kids are taking more ownership for their learning is good we're pretty confident and we had some good research reminders this week from some presenters who said you know if we really give kids ownership for their learning we really do the inquiry piece well where kids are engaging in their own learning we're gonna see that boost in achievement and we did see it we saw changes in how teachers taught science at the middle school and we saw that increase so we're hopeful we're on the right trajectory and we had some very good reminders that this is the right way to go with science instruction we also last week the Department of Ed is working on some awesome some instructional strategies around math and science and stem and last week we worked with some teachers on phenomenon teaching so we're hopeful we can also kind of germinate that kind of idea where we take a phenomena and really engage kids in questioning and designing investigations that again in Creek K through 12 again getting kids more engaged in that will hire achievement as well and the science department at the middle school has had some folks working on universal design for learning principles and you'll see that reflected in the action plan where we'd like to sort of help germinate that and really extend that so teachers are making that connection and that was part of the district leadership's work this week as well is trying to deepen our understanding of that so we can support teachers in moving them forward we believe that work will have an impact on

▶ 1:24:31 Speaker 5: those specific populations I would echo everyone in the chamber that this is a fantastic packet 157 pages worth for those at home who do not have it open in front of them the work that you did you and your team it really is to be commended I am reminded once again that the scientific method is no longer taught as it were some of us old-school scientists still use that in our

▶ 1:25:06 Speaker 5: day-to-day I would like to hear a little bit more if I'm a superintendent about the mixed results with regards to breaking it up by teams a science focus teacher a social studies focus teacher you know subject matter at the elementary school I think where I'm struggling is I'm hearing a need for curriculum and curriculum related materials that are some of which are kit some of which are being brought in from home toilet paper rolls paper towel rolls etc I know my wife who teaches first grade bring did a run on Pringles cans and uh tennis balls um so i i understand the oddity of certain requests i i think i'd like to hear more about what the strategy will be not just next year but going forward long term on this um and i'm sorry if i'm having you beat a dead horse so the teachers when they created the

▶ 1:26:12 Speaker 4: units and really they did i i have to tell you i was skeptical that we could get all four content areas done in three years and we did it when you look at the report all the you know physical science earth science life sciences they're they're all they're all

▶ 1:26:35 Speaker 4: done and when they created the units if you look at the unit did the design documents they have in it very clearly what the materials are that they need for every hands-on they knew know right up front at the beginning of the year And so those of you who get the request for the five boxes of Kleenex the four the four cans of Lysol wipes You know you're also getting these requests for this stuff so that we can be Supplied Going into the year, so I think that's part of it But then there also has to be and there's always consumables in science I mean you know you you were in the field you are in the fields. I taught taught in the field you know every year I got my bucket of worms my bucket of frogs you know so

▶ 1:27:27 Speaker 4: there are those type of consumables that you always have to replace other in other things when you know when you make the circuits and you and you use the potato for the circuit people have to bring in potatoes so and then there's the kit stuff that you have to have but it's not indestructible and that's part of the problem that you always have in science nothing's indestructible whether it's breaking it a beaker or ripping a lead out of the conductor you're always going to have a certain amount of turnover in that too but there is a steady supply of stuff you could have and that's the type of stuff that we can buy but there's always going to be a need for those other type of funky consumables so we know that up front we have FOSS kits and I had John Shannon gather up all the FOSS kits in the city and put them in the garage we just need to get people to go through them and see what's redeemable in them but even then what you bought those FOSS you being the city of Melrose bought

▶ 1:28:33 Speaker 2: those FOSS kits 12 years I think it's 12 years ago 12 years ago because it's a three editions maybe three they're on their third copyright since that they were bought so it's 12 years maybe so yeah and for those at home can you

▶ 1:28:50 Speaker 4: expand FOSS kits FOSS kits was an approach to science as Margaret was saying that you buy a kit that teaches a unit of science it may have the circuits in it it may have the little lever in it you know whatever else you need for the electricity unit so we have some of those but as Margaret just pointed out it's changed so much that you need a new version of it so that's an expense on

▶ 1:29:27 Speaker 4: top of it all when we divide up the schools I have two strand schools I have three strand schools and I'm about to have four strand schools so at Horace Mann I have two grade five teachers let's use grade four three two grade three teachers next year at Roosevelt and Lincoln I'm going to have four grade three teachers at Winthrop I'm going to have three grade three teachers so again part of this is logistical when we try to divide up responsibilities among the teachers who's doing what sometimes we're redundant and sometimes we're stretching it so when we first start to work with this idea we had a three strand at Roosevelt and Aaron Hogan who is now a coach took on the engineering units so you had a wonderful situation you had somebody doing social you had somebody doing engineering and you had somebody doing science and Horace Mann you don't only have two so the person who does science has to do engineering as well what we'll do next year with the four strand we'll figure it out but that's what the variability is that we're staffed differently and we're trying to help people master this by not asking them to master both science and social studies and I remind everybody we're in year two of that new framework

▶ 1:31:01 Speaker 2: When the science curriculum was revised three years ago, that three-strand engineering science and social studies had to be revised because there was so much science content now that the engineering person had to pick up some of the science. We found that in our results that we had to now be able to spread out the science even little further because we weren't getting to all specifically all the physical science pieces that were in the standard so we had to say okay we need to even spread this out even further I think it's also a challenge at the elementary level when there's so much integration because you have the kids all day so you do that science and you don't have enough time to finish it you can say to the students when you come in tomorrow morning go do that or when you have a free moment go do that and so when you departmentalize it that kind of

▶ 1:32:01 Speaker 5: flexibility isn't always there very well any further questions from the committee with that I thank you very much for your time and your effort thank you very

▶ 1:32:15 Speaker 5: much next up on EP or yes EP and P is the school cancellation pilot evaluation